Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Stop writing in riddles GR annd get to the point for God's sake

Is the Greek Orthodox Church credible or not

I think I'm going to commit a crime!

This thread isn't about the bloody Greek Orthodox Church's overall credibility!!! Hell, I don't even have to research that... I can tell you now:

The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't have any!

This thread is about the VALIDITY, ACCURACY, and RELEVANCE, of that God-forsaken 1950 "ENOSIS referendum", which so far I find to be nothing less than a cheap Greek Orthodox Church scam to "fool" the British.

[Eric dayi]

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Stop writing in riddles GR annd get to the point for God's sake

Is the Greek Orthodox Church credible or not

I think I'm going to commit a crime!

This thread isn't about the bloody Greek Orthodox Church's overall credibility!!! Hell, I don't even have to research that... I can tell you now:

The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't have any!

This thread is about the VALIDITY, ACCURACY, and RELEVANCE, of that God-forsaken 1950 "ENOSIS referendum", which so far I find to be nothing less than a cheap Greek Orthodox Church scam to "fool" the British.

The G.O. Church did a great job of "fooling" the GCs and the Greeks too by the look of things.

It is your own people who keep coming up this 96% argument to remind us of their "human" and "democratic rights" in order to endorse thair claim that the GCs should have been given the right to ENOSIS and that us TCs should have joined them and that we are "traitors" because we did not side with the "majority of Cypriots" but sided with the Brits and all that crap.

What I am wondering though is why you waited so long to bring this to our attention and never said anything in the past when your people kept claiming this as a "fact"?

BTW, you committing suicide isn't a crime.....is it?

[Get Real!]

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Stop writing in riddles GR annd get to the point for God's sake

Is the Greek Orthodox Church credible or not

I think I'm going to commit a crime!

This thread isn't about the bloody Greek Orthodox Church's overall credibility!!! Hell, I don't even have to research that... I can tell you now:

The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't have any!

This thread is about the VALIDITY, ACCURACY, and RELEVANCE, of that God-forsaken 1950 "ENOSIS referendum", which so far I find to be nothing less than a cheap Greek Orthodox Church scam to "fool" the British.

The G.O. Church did a great job of "fooling" the GCs and the Greeks too by the look of things.

It is your own people who keep coming up this 96% argument to remind us of their "human" and "democratic rights" in order to endorse thair claim that the GCs should have been given the right to ENOSIS and that us TCs should have joined them and that we are "traitors" because we did not side with the "majority of Cypriots" but sided with the Brits and all that crap.

What I am wondering though is why you waited so long to bring this to our attention and never said anything in the past when your people kept claiming this as a "fact"?

My priority is to analyze and understand as many of the intricate details as possible, of the history of this God forsaken island for my sake, and that of any one else who may be interested, and I honestly don't care if bringing something to the surface serves someone's cause today or not, as long as it is FACTS that surface.

[Eric dayi]

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Stop writing in riddles GR annd get to the point for God's sake

Is the Greek Orthodox Church credible or not

I think I'm going to commit a crime!

This thread isn't about the bloody Greek Orthodox Church's overall credibility!!! Hell, I don't even have to research that... I can tell you now:

The Greek Orthodox Church doesn't have any!

This thread is about the VALIDITY, ACCURACY, and RELEVANCE, of that God-forsaken 1950 "ENOSIS referendum", which so far I find to be nothing less than a cheap Greek Orthodox Church scam to "fool" the British.

The G.O. Church did a great job of "fooling" the GCs and the Greeks too by the look of things.

It is your own people who keep coming up this 96% argument to remind us of their "human" and "democratic rights" in order to endorse thair claim that the GCs should have been given the right to ENOSIS and that us TCs should have joined them and that we are "traitors" because we did not side with the "majority of Cypriots" but sided with the Brits and all that crap.

What I am wondering though is why you waited so long to bring this to our attention and never said anything in the past when your people kept claiming this as a "fact"?

My priority is to analyze and understand as many of the intricate details as possible, of the history of this God forsaken island for my sake, and that of any one else who may be interested, and I honestly don't care if bringing something to the surface serves someone's cause today or not, as long as it is FACTS that surface.

If your "priority is to analyze and understand as many of the intricate details as possible" then why have you not "analyzed" it last week or the week before that or the month before that and brought to the "surface"?

Is there a special/particular reason or occasion for bringing it to the "surface" now?

[Talisker]

Talisker and Eric,

Please observe the important details of the conflicting quotes to be found all over the Internet because they all mean different things… ie:

“95.7% of the population”

“97% of all participants”

“80 per cent of the population of the island”

It appears that everyone just writes up whatever they want with no regard for accuracy, that’s why I posted them here for you all to see.

The questions that need to be answered about this "vote" are as follows…

1. How do you extract a percentage figure, such as 96%, out of a petition? Petitions can only ever be 100% because the participants are never offered a choice!

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

Yes, I completely agree with you that there are important questions that need answering in order to understand the significance (or not) of this 'vote'.

I think it is important to establish if this was a petition or a referendum.
I agree with your point 1 above - can only have a 100% result for a petition - which may have been phrased thus 'I want ENOSIS of Cyprus with Greece' and you then sign below. So no opportunity for dissent - either you sign (which is recorded) or you don't (not recorded). So you land up with a percentage of the population who bothered to turn up and sign.
However if it was a referendum then a 97/3 percentage split might have been the result to the question 'Do you want ENOSIS of Cyprus with Greece?'. You then provide a cross beside your preferred option 'Yes' or 'No'. This gives a quite different result - the numbers of voters should be verifiable, percentage that voted yes/no (presumably 97/3?), and therefore a percentage of the population wanting ENOSIS, can be calculated.

So these are quite different 'votes' and might be useful to establish which was used - I've seen both referred to on the web regarding the 1951 'vote'. I suspect it probably was a 'referendum', and there must be official documentation on this other than secondary sources on the web, but haven't managed to track them down.

The second important point is to know what percentage of the GC population actually 'voted'? This could be more difficult to establish for many of the reasons you've already stated.

And for the record - I also believe in accuracy! But we all tend to generalise based on our (usually incomplete) knowledge. The advantage for me is that as an 'outsider' I have no political agenda, so can view the 'facts' dispassionately.

My priority is to analyze and understand as many of the intricate details as possible, of the history of this God forsaken island for my sake, and that of any one else who may be interested, and I honestly don't care if bringing something to the surface serves someone's cause today or not, as long as it is FACTS that surface.

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

[Eric dayi]

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

And how exactly did you expect the TCs to cut the ties with Turkey and prosper under isolations?

You don't really mean that we TCs should have surrendered to the GCs and allowed themto rule the island on their own and have their ENOSIS if they still wanted to (which they did at the time)?

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

[Nikitas]

"So, Churchill makes one speech and the GCs become jealous and want to become Greeks to share the glory of the Greek nation and start a genocide war against us TCs. Thanks for that, it's good to know for future reference."

They were actively encouraged by the British. Check independent sources and history books. How else would the British get over 30 000 Cypriots to join their war effort? That explains what happened a few years later.

NOW is another story. Why keep going back to 1950 etc? No matter what was done then, we must deal with the here and now.

[Talisker]

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

And how exactly did you expect the TCs to cut the ties with Turkey and prosper under isolations?

You don't really mean that we TCs should have surrendered to the GCs and allowed themto rule the island on their own and have their ENOSIS if they still wanted to (which they did at the time)?

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

I'm hoping there are opportunities to move ahead now. What is done is done, and although it is useful to have an accurate understanding of past events, it is the way forward that is important. Cyprus is in the EU. If reunification occurred do you really believe that TCs would be in danger? I'm certain that at the first hint of trouble EU military forces would be straight into Cyprus - as far as the EU goes they could not afford to do nothing, and the GCs would be making a major mistake, and risking all the gains of the last thirty years or so, if they allowed such a situation to occur. Of course I understand you want guarantees of security. I think you will get that from being part of a fully-fledged EU country, and that your future economic advancement will come through partnership with the GCs rather than continued reliance on the 'motherland'. Just my opinion...........

[Oracle]

Talisker and Eric,

Please observe the important details of the conflicting quotes to be found all over the Internet because they all mean different things… ie:

“95.7% of the population”

“97% of all participants”

“80 per cent of the population of the island”

It appears that everyone just writes up whatever they want with no regard for accuracy, that’s why I posted them here for you all to see.

I was trained in market research with one of the UK's leading companies and the figures presented sound remarkably consistent. Also the terminology used to describe the "sample" is acceptable to avoid plagiarism from article to article.

The 80% figure is actually an extrapolation of :

96 per cent of Greek Cypriots – that is, 80 per cent of the population of the island – voted for Enosis.

..... the very similar 96%, is the true figure for comparison with the other two you chose.

So you have to be careful that statistics don't become a lie .....

The questions that need to be answered about this "vote" are as follows…

1. How do you extract a percentage figure, such as 96%, out of a petition? Petitions can only ever be 100% because the participants are never offered a choice!

Which of your references mentions petition ...

2. How did the Church manage to conduct any form of credible island-wide “voting” survey from which to extract any meaningful statistics, given that the British who were in control of the island did not assist them and were even against this?

This might be why they used churches for gathering information as the British would have found it difficult to stop people going to Church ... bit like in the UK when they hold elections, the voting stations are often attached to Pubs ...

I too would rather things were different and ENOSIS was never mentioned .... but when you present us with facts .....

[Viewpoint]

Again agree completely, and I applaud you for this. In fact, although it is a challenge to find the facts relating to these historical matters it is a necessary exercise particularly if they are used to influence current strategic and political thinking. However, as Cyprus is now in the EU, and ties with Greece reduced, these issues may be less important. I like the fact that some forumers have stressed the importance of Cyprus maturing without dependence on Greece over the last few decades, and it certainly has done so to the point where it is an economically successful country, still with significant geopolitical influence. They point out that TCs could learn something from examining closely why GCs have prospered since 1974 (other than always complaining that they could have done the same were it not for international isolation and embargoes, etc), the loosening of ties with Greece being an important part of this process. I think this is a really positive message to present to the TCs - cut the ties to the motherland (Turkey in their case) and you too can prosper - although the trust and security within a new political framework may be difficult to establish. Just my opinion.............

Regards,
Talisker

And how exactly did you expect the TCs to cut the ties with Turkey and prosper under isolations?

You don't really mean that we TCs should have surrendered to the GCs and allowed themto rule the island on their own and have their ENOSIS if they still wanted to (which they did at the time)?

Opinions is good but in a similar situation and hand on your heart, what would you advise your people to do?

I'm hoping there are opportunities to move ahead now. What is done is done, and although it is useful to have an accurate understanding of past events, it is the way forward that is important. Cyprus is in the EU. If reunification occurred do you really believe that TCs would be in danger? I'm certain that at the first hint of trouble EU military forces would be straight into Cyprus - as far as the EU goes they could not afford to do nothing, and the GCs would be making a major mistake, and risking all the gains of the last thirty years or so, if they allowed such a situation to occur. Of course I understand you want guarantees of security. I think you will get that from being part of a fully-fledged EU country, and that your future economic advancement will come through partnership with the GCs rather than continued reliance on the 'motherland'. Just my opinion...........

There are no EU forces and the TCs do not trust the EU to protect them in times of crisis. The only way out of this problem would be for Turkey guarantee over the north state only.

Both sides need a transition period to show everything works well and trust is built that will provide for cooperation between the 2 communities, this will in turn make both sides more comfortable with not demanding safeguards which make the other side uncomfortable.