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Lingering resentment over abandonment by Greece?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby DT. » Mon May 05, 2008 1:59 pm

Get Real! wrote:
DT. wrote:
Talisker wrote:
miltiades wrote:Point taken , apologies in order , will refrain from hijacking your "thread "
Regards
Miltiades

Thanks Miltiades.
Regards,
Talisker


Talisker, can you take this one on one with Miltiades somewhere else? Some of us are trying to have a discussion here. :roll:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can you take your feud of someone else's feud, that a couple of others are having a feud somewhere else? :roll:


:lol: :lol:

Now you've done it. This guy can have a feud with himself. We're never gonna get this thread back now. :shock:
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Postby Get Real! » Mon May 05, 2008 2:05 pm

Eric dayi wrote:So the question again is, who is lying, you or the other GCs?

It's not a matter of lying but one of perception and interpretation. Talisker’s made what I consider to be a sweeping and inaccurate statement…

In 1950 GCs voted overwhelmingly for ENOSIS with Greece.


…and now have a look at all the evidence I presented in a dedicated thread today... two completely different stories.

I'm sure Talisker wasn't out to intentionally deceive, but his lack of attention to detail, unknowingly made his statement deceiving.
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Postby Talisker » Mon May 05, 2008 2:10 pm

DT. wrote:
Get Real! wrote:
DT. wrote:
Talisker wrote:
miltiades wrote:Point taken , apologies in order , will refrain from hijacking your "thread "
Regards
Miltiades

Thanks Miltiades.
Regards,
Talisker


Talisker, can you take this one on one with Miltiades somewhere else? Some of us are trying to have a discussion here. :roll:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Can you take your feud of someone else's feud, that a couple of others are having a feud somewhere else? :roll:


:lol: :lol:

Now you've done it. This guy can have a feud with himself. We're never gonna get this thread back now. :shock:

Don't ya luv this forum? Who is more irritating - the persecuted or the comedians? :lol:
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Postby Talisker » Mon May 05, 2008 2:32 pm

Get Real! wrote:
Eric dayi wrote:So the question again is, who is lying, you or the other GCs?

It's not a matter of lying but one of perception and interpretation. Talisker’s made what I consider to be a sweeping and inaccurate statement…

In 1950 GCs voted overwhelmingly for ENOSIS with Greece.


…and now have a look at all the evidence I presented in a dedicated thread today... two completely different stories.

I'm sure Talisker wasn't out to intentionally deceive, but his lack of attention to detail, unknowingly made his statement deceiving.

GR!, I've made my response on your 'dedicated' thread.
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Postby Nikitas » Mon May 05, 2008 3:53 pm

Shah posed the question:

"But this was not my question, my question is, why do the GC`s oppose the TC-Turkish relation so violently when they themselves had wanted to be with Greece not that long ago?"

Because the GCs have thrown off the yoke of the motherland and when they negotiate with the TCs they face Turkey too. And all the while they are told about equality of the two sides, meaning between TC and GC, which is a nonsense situation when Turkey is on the other end of the scale.

We are waiting for the TCs to grow up and stop relying on their motherland as we did. Then we can discuss about equality etc. This is not a new or strictly GC view, dozens of TC politician and commentators say pretty much the same thing.
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Postby growuptcs » Mon May 05, 2008 4:53 pm

Nikitas:
We are waiting for the TCs to grow up and stop relying on their motherland as we did. Then we can discuss about equality etc. This is not a new or strictly GC view, dozens of TC politician and commentators say pretty much the same thing.


That was the gameplan for the TCs all along, not to make them extinct the way the rest of the freaks swear by.
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Postby miltiades » Mon May 05, 2008 6:17 pm

DT. wrote:
Talisker wrote:
miltiades wrote:Point taken , apologies in order , will refrain from hijacking your "thread "
Regards
Miltiades

Thanks Miltiades.
Regards,
Talisker


Talisker, can you take this one on one with Miltiades somewhere else? Some of us are trying to have a discussion here. :roll:

Brilliant !
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Postby askimwos » Tue May 06, 2008 11:08 am

Talisker wrote:askimwos, thanks for your considered opinions and response to my question. So I guess you are acknowledging that there has been a shift in GC opinion in relation to ENOSIS, and this is due in large part to realising that being in control of one's own destiny, and making a success of it, builds confidence. Plus, realising that the mother can't always be trusted! I like the positive message you provide for the TCs, to make their own way without the motherland overseeing them. However, I feel that the TCs will probably argue they won't have the freedom to do this within a reunified island, as they will still be a minority within the population. I guess this is why finding a political solution is so difficult, particularly if the usual concept of democracy (one man, one vote), which I see as essential, is followed. Do the models for BBF allow for the TCs to feel masters of their own destiny, without interference from the motherland?


Talikser, I have to disagree with your argument that the TCs will not have the freedom to do this within a reunified island. The TCs have first to realise where they are now and compare this with the potential of being an equal partner in a unified island under the umbrella of a BBF. First of all they get to keep all the services that affect their everyday life i.e. local government, health, education, policing, local justice system etc. They get to benefit from federal funds and an effective participation in the federal government - also TCs businemen will have unobstructed access to the EU and World markets plus quaranteed socioeconomic stability in a democratic country within the EU. Now compare these with the other side of the coin: living in a "country" not recognised by anyone, no direct trade, relying on Turkey for funds, with 40,000+ troops stationed in the occuppied areas and Turkey calling the shots. Even the "police" is controled by the generals for god's sake! I can understand the fear of being dominated by thr richer GC community, however, in the context of a BBF I do not think that this is the case. In a globalised world I think that it is ludicrus to think that the TCs will be dominated by the GCs which are in turn dominated by EU multinationals! In today's world there are two options: a) become part of the constantly moving global economy and survive, even if that means opening up to the multinationals or b) close the gates and starve.
Talikser, I know that TCs understand all the above and they know very well that the options here are very specific. There cannot be independence and freedom for them to control their own destiny if they go it alone - and this is not down to the GCs or the RoC. This is plainly down to Turkey that has never recognised their identity and the difference between TC culture and turkish culture. For Turkey there can only be turkish people and turkish interests - how can they respect the TC culture when the turkish settlers in the occupied areas outnumber the TCs?
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Postby askimwos » Tue May 06, 2008 11:24 am

Talikser, the article below should give you a brief overview of what is going on in TC politics. Note that the author is a TC:

Alkan CHAGLAR
[email protected]

Yazarın tüm yazılarını görüntüle


6 Mayıs 2008, Salı Yorum Yaz Yazdır Arkadaşına Gönder




The economy dictates pretty much everything in this world. Even prospects for grasping a solution to the long-standing Cyprus problem and the position of the Turkish Cypriot leadership are all dependent upon the economy.

Criticism is often leveled at the Turkish Cypriot leadership, fairly or unfairly according to the democratic tradition, but when scrutinising the administration of the internationally unrecognized and self-styled Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) outsiders behind the dividing Nicosia wall often overlook the financial puppet strings controlling the movements of the north’s political system.


ECONOMIC DEPENDENCY

To comprehend northern Cyprus and its politics one has to recognize that Turkey is not just an occupier in northern Cyprus; it funds much of the infrastructure there and pays for hospitals and schooling. Ankara pays the salaries of all civil servants including the President of the TRNC, albeit not directly, these payments are indirectly made through her annual budget to the North Nicosia administration.

To illustrate Turkey’s economic importance one should note that a staggering one third of the entire north Cyprus workforce is employed in the civil service and relies on Turkey to eat. Financial Aid from Turkey is crucial to the Turkish Cypriot economy too. Under the latest economic protocol signed between Turkey and north Cyprus in 2005, Turkey undertakes to provide north Cyprus loans and financial assistance totalling US$450 million over a three-year period for public finance, tourism, banking, and privatization projects. Turkey also provides assistance annually in the form of low-interest loans to mostly Turkish entrepreneurs in support of export-oriented industrial production and tourism. This year Ankara provides 790.2 million YTL or US$637 million in aid to the north of Cyprus. Nearly 464.75 million YTL or US$374 million of such financial aid will be donated for infrastructure investments and defense allocations, according to officials. Total Turkish assistance to North Cyprus since 1974 is estimated to exceed US$3 billion.


GREATEST LEVERAGE

Undoubtedly, these annual budgets of financial aid are a life line as they provide jobs and an income to so many. But they are equally the greatest leverage Ankara has over the north’s civilian government. Far from popular misconception, Turkey does not expend its own tax money out of kindness on ‘ungrateful Turkish Cypriots’ but on hundreds of thousands of settler Turks not to mention an army of 50,000 troops. From Ankara’s political perspective too, leverage is needed to control the north’s government lest it contradicts Turkey’s policies on Cyprus, a move that could leave Ankara looking like the “bad guy” internationally. So Turkey lays down its demands before signing away its cheques.

Despite the fact that I despise the term, Turkey can best be described as a ‘mother’ and the north as its ‘child.’ The term is logical since the TRNC is the product of Turkey and not the Turkish Cypriots. Like a mother she gives her child pocket money but if her child misbehaves then she threatens to take it away.


TURKEY’S INTERVENTIONS CONTINUE

But if Turkish Cypriots regard the TRNC as their ‘state,’ then the relationship of dependency they have with their ‘mother’ at the age of 33 is hardly a healthy one. In a rambling kvetch against ‘the system,’ one Turkish Cypriot politician frankly informed me that the budget of the north normally ends in 8 months, after which the leader or President will normally fly to Ankara to petition the Turkish government to bail him out for the next 4 months. Ankara can either accept or refuse to help the economically depressed north of Cyprus, but if it accepts it will lay down conditions. It is these conditions which we do not hear about that shape policy and the speed at which the Turkish Cypriot leadership moves towards a Cyprus solution. In short, it is these financial conditions that govern how the Turkish Cypriot leadership governs.

The gentleman who wished to remain anonymous claimed that “Turkey intervened in 1974, but politically it keeps intervening.” In his words, Turkey decides on which candidates will stand in elections, what percentage will be Turkish Cypriot and settler Turks, who will form a government or coalition, what meetings the President of the TRNC will attend and what he will say publicly and when. Like a rehearsal for a play, the script is very much written in Ankara by its Director and not by its performers in north Nicosia.


DIRECT TRADE

With a sense of purpose and a need to bring change, some members of the TRNC administration blame ‘embargoes’ or isolation for the dependence of the north on Turkey. They argue that ever since the European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled on July 5, 1994 against the British practice of importing produce from the area based on certificates of origin and phyto-sanitary certificates granted by TRNC authorities that the reliance on Turkey has increased. The fact that after the ECJ decision there followed a considerable decrease of Turkish-Cypriot exports to the EU - from US$36.4 million (or 66.7% of total Turkish-Cypriot exports) in 1993 to US$13.8 million in 2003 (or 28% of total exports) is often cited.

In an argument that sees Direct Trade as the panacea to increased independence from Turkey, some members of the current TRNC administration are campaigning vigorously for Direct Trade in order to decrease their dependency on Turkey. But I am not convinced Turkey who has such a powerful leverage over Turkish Cypriots would want to change the status quo. After all, what does Direct Trade between the TRNC and the EU, which eradicates economic triangulation offer Turkey?

The same questions can be asked to explain the current very limited Green Line Trade. Efforts to establish Direct Trade via the Republic were curbed by the same Turkish Cypriot administration that cries for Direct Trade despite the fact that goods from north Cyprus could be sold abroad via the port of Limassol. The Green Line Regulations, which aim to integrate and reunify the two economies of the north and the Republic, clearly poses a threat to the current status quo of dependence on Ankara.


ECONOMIC BENEFITS OF REUNIFICATION


The north today faces serious economic problems. Perhaps Ankara is squeezing the current administration…. But as if timely, this week Michael Møller, the outgoing Secretary-General’s Special Representative (UN) welcomed a new piece of research highlighting the economic benefits of reunification. The research is said to project commercial opportunities across the island if there was a solution. Welcoming the research as a “reference in all future consideration of the implications of a solution,” Møller said: “It helps answer a question at the front of every Cypriot’s mind, Greek and Turkish, one we should be doing more to address: ‘what will a solution mean to me and my family?


A SOLUTION IS KEY

When working towards a solution for Cyprus, one has to be aware of the financial aid factor in the north’s politics. Turkey’s strong grip over Turkish Cypriot politics is so strong that no amount of democratic elections can ever change Ankara’s role. The Turkish Cypriot leadership can undoubtedly minimize the effects of this, but they are otherwise powerless to stop Turkey using its biggest leverage. The UN and the Greek Cypriot leadership should be aware of these constraints when approaching the Turkish Cypriot leadership. Turkish Cypriots for their part should reject any kind of economic dependency that makes a mockery of their political equality and elected leader, they should look for stable foundations for their future which can only come from a sustainable peace solution with the Greek Cypriot community. But more importantly, those who promote reunification should be realistic and use the economic card. They need to promote the economic benefits of reunification; this is where the UN research and others can come in handy. Both Greek and Turkish Cypriot leaders should work with Møller to promote reunification through its economic benefits to the Cypriot people as a whole and to increase Green Line Trade. Turkey too needs to be included in the economic benefits of reunification if it is to agree to a solution.
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Postby humanist » Tue May 06, 2008 11:26 am

Despite the Turkish occupation of the Island and the violation of human rights via denial of access to property, freedom to choose, and denial of ones frredom of movement within ones country the relationship between Greece and Cyprus is one that has eveolved to a healthy equal status. I feel it is the right relationhip between the two countries to be had.
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