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What do/did GCs think about Dr. Kucuk?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:30 pm

Insan wrote:Kifeas, what was the target of Akritas Plan? The target of the Akritas Plan was to create impressions in the eyes of international community that TCs are trouble makers, a minority that blocks the will of GC "nation". The aim of the plan is to degrade TCs to a minority status by creating impressions that TCs are an intansigence, trouble maker minority. Of course TCs wouldn't submit the oppressions and violent tactics of the Enosists. Of course they would have reacted and struggled; fought against it.

The ones who prepared the plan had thought that the oppressed TCs would have left Cyprus(Though some of them left Cyprus with fianacial help of Makarios) and the others would have either submited to the GC rule or executed.

What was the Akritas Plan if it is not for the extermination of TCs?

However things didn't go how they schemed.


Hi Insan,
Where have you been?
I wish your newly chosen avatar will not reflect to a lack of seriousness on your behalf, at least from now on. :)
I didn’t take it quite right. Do you ask me what was the target of the Akritas Plan, or you ask me and simultaneously answer your question on my behalf?

The aims of the plan are to facilitate the abolition of the treaty of guarantee and to facilitate the proposed amendment of the constitution, which in its turn will facilitate the exercising of the perceived right of self-determination, primarily if not exclusively, through the use of political and diplomatic means. The use of force is not excluded but is meant to be used only to the minimum possible level and only should the TCs resign to violent acts as a form of reaction against the stated aims of the plan.

It is clear that the use of force (violence) was not welcomed, as this would worsen the climate that was absolutely necessary for the promotion of the aims of the plan. It is clearly stated that, although undesirable, it should be used to suppress in a short period of time any serious violent actions by TCs. Even isolated cases of sporadic violence and resistance were ruled out from being answered by GC forces, should they were evaluated as not possessing a serious threat.

Obviously this is miles apart from what Bananiot constantly claims, that the aim of the plan was to exterminate the TC community from Cyprus.

The primary target of the plan is not to create the impression to the eyes of the international community that TCs are troublemakers, as you mention above. This is a secondary target that would only be aimed if TCs resort to violent actions in order to obstruct the primary target, which is the one I stayed above.

It is not evident in the plan that “the ones who prepared the plan had thought that the oppressed TCs would have left Cyprus,” as you claim. The plan didn’t provide for such as solution. It is true that later on, in the years after, a number of TCs (a relatively small one) had chosen to emigrate from Cyprus and that Makarios in many cases facilitated their departure through economic assistance.

Further more, what you say in your question/answer posting, that those TCs who did not emigrate “would have either submitted to the GC rule or executed,” is also not mentioned in the plan nor there is any indirect evidence to suggest it. Remember! We are discussing the Akritas plan. It is clear that what had followed during the 1963-64 inter-communal conflict, mainly as it relates to the use of force, has almost nothing to do with the provisions of the plan, as such.

Conclusion.
a.) Your analysis of the Akritas plan, as above, is faulty.
b.) Bananiot’s allegation that the aim of the Akritas plan was to exterminate (clean out) the TC community from Cyprus in one night, which is done in order to discredit Papadopoullos as a chauvinist, a murderer and a Turks hater, is totally distorted and constitutes an unprecedented lie. I am still waiting for his reply to single out any paragraph that suggests his allegations.

I stated before that I do not agree with the approach taken by the authors of the Akritas plan, in order to promote changes to the constitution. I accept changes were necessary but could have been achieved with patience and consultations with the TC community and not unilaterally.
Last edited by Kifeas on Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:33 pm

Viewpoint wrote: 1- Please correct me. In one of your previous post you said you were seven in 1974. I might get confused by another user. I appologise in advance.
2- You are only making assumptions...

3- You do the same thing too. You put the blame on the T.Cs. You claimed majority of T.Cs were happy to live with G.Cs. Only the ones who had the fear were the TMT men and their family.


1.You are confusing me with another member.
2.Well ask your mother or father and come back with the real answer I am telling you what I said is 100% true.
3.Aha! Very good.You think Viewpoint I don't know the other side of the coin? But the way you (TCs) all talk in this forum in absolute terms, force me to talk in absolute terms too. OK, the truth is the majority of TCs were plain innocent people. Those people were thinking "I did not touch anyone, why should anyone hurt me".Yet in many occasions even those innocent were hurt. Look for example what happened to the uncle of Erol. Yes there was a general mood of fear and uncertainty among the GCs. However the first target were always the people who were involved in TMT.

wrote: those enclaves were a safe haven for many TCs and why would you ever want to to enter a closed area


Many GC people who lost their way-it happens you know when one visits another town- never got out from your heaven enclaves.
Many drank people who entered the enclaves, were forced to quit drinking for eternity as they had no throat left to put the liquor through anymore.Understand?

wrote: But the trust element no longer exists, why should I trust you and why should you trust me? we have lived apart for to long to think we can truly commit to a solution and make it work. Isnt better to accept partition and move on, leave all the bad shit in the history books and live as good neighbours.


Speak for yourself. The majority says it will never donate you any part of the Country. You are not entitled to it and you will never get it.And by the way do you think there is any chance in a million ANY PRESIDENT to sign the giving up of any part of an EU country to any Minority and to any settlers to become a separate country?All your can hope is for the existing situation to last for another 10-15 years!! Live well....

***************************************

Insan wrote: It is true. Kuchuk told me that he did this as a measure, reaction and a counter-movement against Enosists.


Heres a question from "MicAtCyp and the likes":What do you mean he told you? Did you interview him? Is he still alive?

******************************************

Heres another question I have for our friend Turkcyp

What is this sudden interest for Kucuk? Is he your relative? Please PM me if you don't want to reply publicly.

******************************************
Yes Erol

What you said is true.Read my reply to VP (which as you can notice preceded even the reading of your post. I am replying sequentially to posts as you may notice....
I hope you understand that when someone like VP comes showing you one side of the coin you are just oblidged to show him the other side and NOT both sides. In other words you have to go through yavas-yavas .

wrote: My aunt as a result and others in my family had very real and very good reasons to fear GC and MicAtCyp knows this - yet still posts his propaganda.


Erol I should be offended from this. However I will let it pass as I know you are generally a polite person. I am glad you know "MicAtCyp knows this". Then why do you rush to attribute my answer to propaganda purposes? Why it did not pass through your mind that maybe this MicAtCyp guy is NOT doing it for propaganda but to slowly slowly drag the donkey to the point where he can be sensible enough to listen?

********************************************

Bananiot wrote: Michalis Papapetrou, one of the few sincere politicians we have, has already explained that even school children were trained in guns in order to be ready to implement the Akritas plan.



Bananidiot do you still have the audacity to repeat the proven lies? Man you are indeed a phenomenon!

Cannedmoose here’s your number one soldier man.Here are your first $1000 commission! Go for it!!
**********************************************

Hmmm only Kifeas left.

Kifea,
He is indeed an Efialtis man. I think we better forget him.
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Postby insan » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:43 pm

Further more, what you say in your question/answer posting that those TCs who did not emigrate “would have either submitted to the GC rule or executed,” is also not mentioned in the plan nor there is any indirect evidence to suggest it. Remember! We are discussing the Akritas plan. It is clear that what had followed during the 1963-64 inter-communal conflict, mainly as it relates to the use of force, has almost nothing to do with the provisions of the plan, as such.

Conclusion.
a.) Your analysis of the Akritas plan, as above, is faulty.


Some parts of Akritas Plan was censored when it was published by Patris in 1966. The version you posted here is the censored one. The complete Akritas Plan has never been published by any newspapers. The plan is full of evidence that prove my claims. The terrorist actions of Grivas and Grivasites(remember they had no divergence of opinion with Makarios and Makariosites until 1968) between 1963-1968 also prove the rightness of my claims.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:46 pm

MicAtCyp,

Although I also fail to refrain from not doing this, we should all try to make our postings as less toxic as possible.

This by no means should equate to keeping a strict and purely diplomatic style. Some well indented teasing and use of phlegmatic humour is not a serious problem.

If certain people constantly use a toxic style and language, please try to avoid answering to them at all, as I decided to practice my self, instead of replying with an equally toxic manner.

Take care
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:56 pm

Insan wrote:Some parts of Akritas Plan was censored when it was published by Patris in 1966. The version you posted here is the censored one. The complete Akritas Plan has never been published by any newspapers. The plan is full of evidence that prove my claims. The terrorist actions of Grivas and Grivasites(remember they had no divergence of opinion with Makarios and Makariosites until 1968) between 1963-1968 also prove the rightness of my claims.


Insan,
Since you know (red) the content of the original, non-censored plan that was published in “Patris” newspaper, why you do not sent me an image copy of this paper, or just publish it here.

Have you read it your self? Have you red a non-censored version of it? If you have a link, please provide it. Of course not the “TRNC” website version.

Until then, I am entitled to believe that this one (Cyprus-Conflict website version) is the full and uncensored version of the Akritas Plan.
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Postby insan » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:02 pm

Insan,
Since you know (red) the content of the original, non-censored plan that was published in “Patris” newspaper, why you do not sent me an image copy of this paper, or just publish it here.


I didn't say that I red the original Akritas Plan. I red that some parts of the plan was censored and then published by Patris.

Have you read it your self? Have you red a non-censored version of it? If you have a link, please provide it. Of course not the “TRNC” website version.


I haven't read a non-censored Akritas Plan as I clearly stated in my previous post.

Until then, I am entitled to believe that this one (Cyprus-Conflict website version) is the full and uncensored version of the Akritas Plan.


Couldn't you see there are explanations within the text that state [not published]?
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:21 pm

Insan wrote:I didn't say that I red the original Akritas Plan. I red that some parts of the plan was censored and then published by Patris.

Insan wrote:I haven't read a non-censored Akritas Plan as I clearly stated in my previous post.


Ok, but how do you know what these censored parts were saying since you haven’t read them, as you say?

Insan wrote:Couldn't you see there are explanations within the text that state [not published]?


Where are these explanations? I didn’t see in the website version such remarks like you claim. Nowhere does it say, …. [not published.]!

ediding due to wrong quotations
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:31 pm

MicAtCyp
Viewpoint wrote:
1- Please correct me. In one of your previous post you said you were seven in 1974. I might get confused by another user. I appologise in advance.
2- You are only making assumptions...

3- You do the same thing too. You put the blame on the T.Cs. You claimed majority of T.Cs were happy to live with G.Cs. Only the ones who had the fear were the TMT men and their family.


1.You are confusing me with another member.
2.Well ask your mother or father and come back with the real answer I am telling you what I said is 100% true.
3.Aha! Very good.You think Viewpoint I don't know the other side of the coin? But the way you (TCs) all talk in this forum in absolute terms, force me to talk in absolute terms too. OK, the truth is the majority of TCs were plain innocent people. Those people were thinking "I did not touch anyone, why should anyone hurt me".Yet in many occasions even those innocent were hurt. Look for example what happened to the uncle of Erol. Yes there was a general mood of fear and uncertainty among the GCs. However the first target were always the people who were involved in TMT.


The above original comments are not mine....

MicAtCyp
Speak for yourself. The majority says it will never donate you any part of the Country. You are not entitled to it and you will never get it.And by the way do you think there is any chance in a million ANY PRESIDENT to sign the giving up of any part of an EU country to any Minority and to any settlers to become a separate country?All your can hope is for the existing situation to last for another 10-15 years!! Live well....
Code: Select all

You have no option, if you havent noticed we have been divided for the last 31 years, thank god, you dont have to donate whats already mine and I am in possesion of. All thats left is to follow Mr Papadops policies and hopes he makes enough mistakes to aggrivate the already annoyed EU UN USA UK Turkey etc etc, wont take long at this rate.
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Postby insan » Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:05 pm

Ok, but how do you know what these censored parts were saying since you haven’t read them, as you say?


It's not hard to guess when the violent and terrorist actions of Makariosites and Grivasites(1963-68 period) has been well examined.


Where are these explanations? I didn’t see in the website version such remarks like you claim. Nowhere does it say, …. [not published.]!


I have many times copied the Akritas Plan on cyprus-conflict.net and posted it some forums with it links. Just a while ago when I visited the cyprus-conflict.net website, those rematks existed in the text.
It seems the admin of the website revised the text of the plan on cyprus-conflict.net. Just a while ago there were remarks in the text that showed some passages and sections were omitted.

I will e-mail and ask them why did they need to revise it and clear those remarks.
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Postby Kifeas » Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:13 pm

insan wrote:It's not hard to guess when the violent and terrorist actions of Makariosites and Grivasites(1963-68 period) has been well examined.


Insan,
If we agreed to talk about the Akritas plan, then we should only talk about the Akritas plan. If we agree to talk about the events or the inter-communal conflicts of 1963-64 or later, then you can say what you said above.

I do not like it when one accepts to speak about the content of the plan and all of suddenly to jump to a different issue, irrespective of whether it is related or not. With guesses and assumptions we end up no-where.

Insan wrote:I have many times copied the Akritas Plan on cyprus-conflict.net and posted it some forums with it links. Just a while ago when I visited the cyprus-conflict.net website, those rematks existed in the text.
It seems the admin of the website revised the text of the plan on cyprus-conflict.net. Just a while ago there were remarks in the text that showed some passages and sections were omitted.

I will e-mail and ask them why did they need to revise it and clear those remarks.


No need to email anyone Insan. The copy that appears on the “TRNC” website is an almost identical one to the one I posted from Cyprus-conflict website. Only some words are slightly different but they do not alter the meaning at all. Furthermore, neither in the “TRNC” website version there are any explanations for parts to have been censored, as you claimed before.

Just follow the “TRNC” link:
http://www.trncpresidency.org/documents/akritas_plan.doc
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