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POLITICAL HOOLIGANISM

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kikapu » Thu May 01, 2008 1:20 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Bananiot,

IF each zone has a majority community and a minority, then I sure as hell hope we are not going to start the same old minority crap we had in the past.

This time there is a hopeful third factor in the talks, the EU and its contribution in the form of experts who will be advising both communities, as well as the UN mediators, how things are expected to be in a EU member state. This should keep us out of any Annan like traps. There is also the confirmed participation in the Eurozone and avoidance of all the economic coordination hardships that the Annan plan was trying to fix but could not.

We will know in two months time how far we have progressed in the last four years.


They were there during the AP so that really blows your theory our of the water.


Actually VP, the EU were there as "observers"in 2004, but now, they are there as equal partners to one of their own, another EU member, Cyprus. A lot has changed, don't you think since 2004 AP.??

Here is an article that you may find interesting to read.
UN asks EU expertise on Cyprus reunification talks

The Associated PressPublished: April 30, 2008

NICOSIA, Cyprus: The United Nations is seeking European Union advice on Cyprus reunification talks, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday.
Negotiations between Cypriot President Dimitris Christofias and Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat are scheduled to begin this summer. Thirteen working groups are trying to narrow the gaps between the two sides on various issues, including thorny subjects such as security and territory, before those talks begin.

"EU officials are exploring with the parties involved how they can best be helpful," said U.N. spokesman Jose Luis Diaz. One of the ways would be for them to assess whether the proposals of the working groups were compatible with EU law, he said.

EU spokeswoman Klimentini Diakomanoli said three EU officials have met with officials from the island's rival Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities.

Cyprus has been split along ethnic lines since 1974. The island joined the European Union in 2004, but the bloc's benefits are enjoyed only by Greek Cypriots.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/ ... cation.php
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu May 01, 2008 1:48 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Bananiot,

IF each zone has a majority community and a minority, then I sure as hell hope we are not going to start the same old minority crap we had in the past.

This time there is a hopeful third factor in the talks, the EU and its contribution in the form of experts who will be advising both communities, as well as the UN mediators, how things are expected to be in a EU member state. This should keep us out of any Annan like traps. There is also the confirmed participation in the Eurozone and avoidance of all the economic coordination hardships that the Annan plan was trying to fix but could not.

We will know in two months time how far we have progressed in the last four years.


They were there during the AP so that really blows your theory our of the water.


Actually VP, the EU were there as "observers"in 2004, but now, they are there as equal partners to one of their own, another EU member, Cyprus. A lot has changed, don't you think since 2004 AP.??

Here is an article that you may find interesting to read.
UN asks EU expertise on Cyprus reunification talks

The Associated PressPublished: April 30, 2008

NICOSIA, Cyprus: The United Nations is seeking European Union advice on Cyprus reunification talks, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday.
Negotiations between Cypriot President Dimitris Christofias and Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat are scheduled to begin this summer. Thirteen working groups are trying to narrow the gaps between the two sides on various issues, including thorny subjects such as security and territory, before those talks begin.

"EU officials are exploring with the parties involved how they can best be helpful," said U.N. spokesman Jose Luis Diaz. One of the ways would be for them to assess whether the proposals of the working groups were compatible with EU law, he said.

EU spokeswoman Klimentini Diakomanoli said three EU officials have met with officials from the island's rival Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities.

Cyprus has been split along ethnic lines since 1974. The island joined the European Union in 2004, but the bloc's benefits are enjoyed only by Greek Cypriots.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/ ... cation.php


I can guarantee that EU experts were there to help on issues where there seemed to be an impasse and on a certain subject they had to convince the GC side that they were wrong and that that the TC side was more along EU norms than the GC side. A lot of the AP had EU approval, you will see it this time around as well, what will you do if they do not see eye to eye with you but the TCs? You will once and for all accept that we are right as well and the GCs need to compromise just as much maybe even more than we do?
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Postby Kikapu » Thu May 01, 2008 5:12 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Bananiot,

IF each zone has a majority community and a minority, then I sure as hell hope we are not going to start the same old minority crap we had in the past.

This time there is a hopeful third factor in the talks, the EU and its contribution in the form of experts who will be advising both communities, as well as the UN mediators, how things are expected to be in a EU member state. This should keep us out of any Annan like traps. There is also the confirmed participation in the Eurozone and avoidance of all the economic coordination hardships that the Annan plan was trying to fix but could not.

We will know in two months time how far we have progressed in the last four years.


They were there during the AP so that really blows your theory our of the water.


Actually VP, the EU were there as "observers"in 2004, but now, they are there as equal partners to one of their own, another EU member, Cyprus. A lot has changed, don't you think since 2004 AP.??

Here is an article that you may find interesting to read.
UN asks EU expertise on Cyprus reunification talks

The Associated PressPublished: April 30, 2008

NICOSIA, Cyprus: The United Nations is seeking European Union advice on Cyprus reunification talks, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday.
Negotiations between Cypriot President Dimitris Christofias and Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat are scheduled to begin this summer. Thirteen working groups are trying to narrow the gaps between the two sides on various issues, including thorny subjects such as security and territory, before those talks begin.

"EU officials are exploring with the parties involved how they can best be helpful," said U.N. spokesman Jose Luis Diaz. One of the ways would be for them to assess whether the proposals of the working groups were compatible with EU law, he said.

EU spokeswoman Klimentini Diakomanoli said three EU officials have met with officials from the island's rival Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities.

Cyprus has been split along ethnic lines since 1974. The island joined the European Union in 2004, but the bloc's benefits are enjoyed only by Greek Cypriots.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/ ... cation.php


I can guarantee that EU experts were there to help on issues where there seemed to be an impasse and on a certain subject they had to convince the GC side that they were wrong and that that the TC side was more along EU norms than the GC side. A lot of the AP had EU approval, you will see it this time around as well, what will you do if they do not see eye to eye with you but the TCs? You will once and for all accept that we are right as well and the GCs need to compromise just as much maybe even more than we do?


Lets see if the EU will endorse the 50%-50% power share, veto vote, "Virgin Birth" making the North pure TC ownership, Foreign Troops remaining on the island, and having a Confederation with a weak central government. I'm sure such examples are all over the EU map in other EU countries, so why not in Cyprus.!!!
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Postby Kikapu » Thu May 01, 2008 6:03 pm

Bananiot wrote: Obviously BBF has a number of unpalatable provisions.


Hi Bananiot,

As a TC, I'm very interested to hear your views on the provisions you found unpalatable in the AP, because of your overall support of the AP. Just which parts did you find that was not to your liking.

Thanks.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu May 01, 2008 6:23 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Nikitas wrote:Bananiot,

IF each zone has a majority community and a minority, then I sure as hell hope we are not going to start the same old minority crap we had in the past.

This time there is a hopeful third factor in the talks, the EU and its contribution in the form of experts who will be advising both communities, as well as the UN mediators, how things are expected to be in a EU member state. This should keep us out of any Annan like traps. There is also the confirmed participation in the Eurozone and avoidance of all the economic coordination hardships that the Annan plan was trying to fix but could not.

We will know in two months time how far we have progressed in the last four years.


They were there during the AP so that really blows your theory our of the water.


Actually VP, the EU were there as "observers"in 2004, but now, they are there as equal partners to one of their own, another EU member, Cyprus. A lot has changed, don't you think since 2004 AP.??

Here is an article that you may find interesting to read.
UN asks EU expertise on Cyprus reunification talks

The Associated PressPublished: April 30, 2008

NICOSIA, Cyprus: The United Nations is seeking European Union advice on Cyprus reunification talks, a U.N. spokesman said Wednesday.
Negotiations between Cypriot President Dimitris Christofias and Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat are scheduled to begin this summer. Thirteen working groups are trying to narrow the gaps between the two sides on various issues, including thorny subjects such as security and territory, before those talks begin.

"EU officials are exploring with the parties involved how they can best be helpful," said U.N. spokesman Jose Luis Diaz. One of the ways would be for them to assess whether the proposals of the working groups were compatible with EU law, he said.

EU spokeswoman Klimentini Diakomanoli said three EU officials have met with officials from the island's rival Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities.

Cyprus has been split along ethnic lines since 1974. The island joined the European Union in 2004, but the bloc's benefits are enjoyed only by Greek Cypriots.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/ ... cation.php


I can guarantee that EU experts were there to help on issues where there seemed to be an impasse and on a certain subject they had to convince the GC side that they were wrong and that that the TC side was more along EU norms than the GC side. A lot of the AP had EU approval, you will see it this time around as well, what will you do if they do not see eye to eye with you but the TCs? You will once and for all accept that we are right as well and the GCs need to compromise just as much maybe even more than we do?


Lets see if the EU will endorse the 50%-50% power share, veto vote, "Virgin Birth" making the North pure TC ownership, Foreign Troops remaining on the island, and having a Confederation with a weak central government. I'm sure such examples are all over the EU map in other EU countries, so why not in Cyprus.!!!


They endorsed the AP which you GCs have demonized only to find that the basis of any agreement will contain elements of the AP.
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Postby Kikapu » Thu May 01, 2008 7:52 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Lets see if the EU will endorse the 50%-50% power share, veto vote, "Virgin Birth" making the North pure TC ownership, Foreign Troops remaining on the island, and having a Confederation with a weak central government. I'm sure such examples are all over the EU map in other EU countries, so why not in Cyprus.!!!


They endorsed the AP which you GCs have demonized only to find that the basis of any agreement will contain elements of the AP.


Cyprus was not a member of the EU club at that time, so what ever the EU may or may not have endorsed of the AP is no longer valid, since the rules have changed dramatically. As a TC I find the above conditions undemocratic and were in fact basis for further bloodshed and division. I would have been very surprised if it had passed by the GC's back in 2004. You may want to use them as basis for today's negotiations, but don't be surprised if they will just be ignored as being irrelevant. You are forgetting one fundamental change that has happened VP, and that Cyprus is now in the EU. This has changed the course of history for Cyprus and Cypriots for the future and no longer business as usual as the case was from 1974-2004. It's time for you to make a leap forward and negotiate a just and fair deal for all Cypriots and not just and fair deal for yourself.
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Postby Nikitas » Thu May 01, 2008 8:33 pm

The EU experts are there primarily to offer advice. I am sure they are there also to prevent agreements which will be a pain in the ass of the EU in the future. Their focus is more on technical matters than political.

If on a certain point the TC view is more in tune with EU law than the GC point of view, then obviously the TC view will be preferable. The point being that there is a standard which will be applied to judge which course is in line with the wider EU picture. I see no problems with that approach.

As for parts of the Annan plan being valid, naturaly there are. The parts of the plan which the GCs ojected to were mostly the schedules of implementation. Personally I would add the details of military disengagement, but that is a personal view. It was not mentioned by others.

There is also the view expressed by Christofias during a pre election interview in which he said that it is possible to have a territorial arrangement which will allow all GCs to reclaim their properties and still have a majority TC population in the north. He did not elaborate but I am curious to see how this proposal will be framed in the coming weeks.
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Postby Bananiot » Thu May 01, 2008 10:55 pm

Kikapu, some time ago, perhaps as long ago as 3 years, I was asked why I voted for the Annan Plan. At the time I gave the following answer:

The year 2004 was immensely significant for Cyprus. It was the first time in more than 30 years that a comprehensive plan was offered to the two communities of Cyprus, Greeks and Turks, for a solution to a problem that has lasted for a very long time. The Turkish Cypriots voted in significant numbers for the proposed solution while the Greek Cypriots heeded the advice of their President and gave a resounding “No” to the Secretary General of the UN that prepared the plan. April 2004 was the month when the people of Cyprus were called upon to decide for the future of their island.

The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it. As someone said, even the proposed new flag of the unified island looked really bad. However, one needed to decide on more complex issues and really it was not about saying a simple “yes” or a simple “no”. The most important question we had to answer was: Could we hope for something better in the future and thus dismiss the proposed plan of the UN Secretary General or go for it, because the alternative would be partition and eventual accession of the occupied part of Cyprus by Turkey. President Papadopoulos had an ace under his sleeve. He called upon the Greek Cypriots to give a loud “no” because we were only a week away from becoming a full member of the European Union. “Why vote “yes” when we can wait for another week and then ask for a better European solution” he asked the people.

The Annan Plan was a plan that was supported by the international community (UN and EU). There were many things in it that could have been better. Papadopoulos did not negotiate it with a view of making it better for the Greek Cypriots. He in fact made it worse (Annan 3 was much better than the final plan) so that he could justify the loud "no" he was asking. I suppose he sincerely believed that the EU would step in with a better plan after we joined this exclusive club. Some think that he had never the stomach for a Bizonal, Bicommunal Federation and he used the EU hand to trick the people into rejecting the plan.

Of course, in the world we live, there are no ideal solutions but options (according to the great author Stanislav Lem) especially for a tiny weenie country such as Cyprus. We have been offered some better options in the past but declined to take them, making sure that the Turks received the blame for the stalemate. This worked quite well while Denktash ruled supreme in the north. Basically, we kept the flame going for a different kind of solution that would see Cyprus becoming a unitary state once again with the majority running the country and the minority enjoying all legitimate rights. Of course we were thinking wishfully, as always, but when things did change in the north, our shortcomings were quickly exposed. The whole world now thinks that we are the community to blame and that the Turkish Cypriot community is to be rewarded for maintaining a positive and helpful stance. The victims became the guilty part and Turkey got a resolution at the UN asking her to continue her good efforts for a solution. The amazing thing is that Papadopoulos put his signature on the print.

Some questions need to be asked at this late hour, when partition of Cyprus is quite ominous: Can we climb down from the clouds and face realities? Realities that were formulated not only by Turkey but mainly because of our own incredible lust to turn the island into a part of Greece (Makarios's speeches in Panayia and elsewhere in the early 60's pay testament to the fact). Papadopoulos and his government have been in charge for almost four years. Doesn't it strike as odd that he has not made a single proposition as to how we can go about solving our problem? Does Papadopoulos give the impression that he wants a quick solution? Does anyone understand what he actually wants? Why do people not trust him? Has the whole world teamed up to conspire against us? Is it okay for us to shout "thieves" at the Anglo-Americans in such an undiplomatically resentful way? Are we offering the best service to our country by alienating ourselves from the most influential countries that control this part of the world? Is this a patriotic thing to do?

I supported the Annan Plan and voted, among others, for the Turkish army to leave Cyprus and the number of settlers to be restricted to a few thousands. I voted for the Plan because I knew fully well that it was an option that we could not afford not to take. Simitis, the Prime Minister of Greece for more than ten years, urged us to vote for the plan, along with other politicians in Greece. He knew only too well that it was the best we could do, under the circumstances.


One of the important reasons why I voted for the plan, as I explained, was my firm belief that Papadopoulos could not sell a "no" vote. I think Christofias also realised this and this was an important fact that led him become a candidate for President.

I am sure that any plan that appears on the negotiation table in the near future, will contain many provisions from the Annan plan. Of course I would like to see changes but remember these have to be agreed by the two communities. I would like to see the time frames for the implementation of certain provisions become much shorter, for a start. The property issue should be looked at again and it would be very helpfull if more land is given back to the Greek Cypriots. I would like to see Famagusta returned straight away. What is the point of applying time frames in this case? I would like to see the complete demilitarisation of Cyprus but this will not be a red line for me. I can live with some Turkish and some Greek soldiers remaining for a set period of time. Some settlers will stay after solution. President Christofias is willing to accept as many as 55k. This is okay with me. The Turkish guarantees could have an expiry date when the EU could take over the guarantorship.

The philosophy of the solution cannot change. We have agreed on this and the two communities signed agreements on this. As long as one community objects to a change in philosophy such an action will be foolish to take. Dreaming about a unitary Cyprus is a midsummers night dream. This can only cement partition, which is the worse scenario.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu May 01, 2008 11:31 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Lets see if the EU will endorse the 50%-50% power share, veto vote, "Virgin Birth" making the North pure TC ownership, Foreign Troops remaining on the island, and having a Confederation with a weak central government. I'm sure such examples are all over the EU map in other EU countries, so why not in Cyprus.!!!


They endorsed the AP which you GCs have demonized only to find that the basis of any agreement will contain elements of the AP.


Cyprus was not a member of the EU club at that time, so what ever the EU may or may not have endorsed of the AP is no longer valid, since the rules have changed dramatically. As a TC I find the above conditions undemocratic and were in fact basis for further bloodshed and division. I would have been very surprised if it had passed by the GC's back in 2004. You may want to use them as basis for today's negotiations, but don't be surprised if they will just be ignored as being irrelevant. You are forgetting one fundamental change that has happened VP, and that Cyprus is now in the EU. This has changed the course of history for Cyprus and Cypriots for the future and no longer business as usual as the case was from 1974-2004. It's time for you to make a leap forward and negotiate a just and fair deal for all Cypriots and not just and fair deal for yourself.


So are you saying the EU adopt double standards one for before the GCs entered the EU and one for after? Doesn't really instill trust or confidence in TCs who doubt the impartiality of EU due to unkept promises.
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Postby boomerang » Thu May 01, 2008 11:58 pm

Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:
Kikapu wrote:
Lets see if the EU will endorse the 50%-50% power share, veto vote, "Virgin Birth" making the North pure TC ownership, Foreign Troops remaining on the island, and having a Confederation with a weak central government. I'm sure such examples are all over the EU map in other EU countries, so why not in Cyprus.!!!


They endorsed the AP which you GCs have demonized only to find that the basis of any agreement will contain elements of the AP.


Cyprus was not a member of the EU club at that time, so what ever the EU may or may not have endorsed of the AP is no longer valid, since the rules have changed dramatically. As a TC I find the above conditions undemocratic and were in fact basis for further bloodshed and division. I would have been very surprised if it had passed by the GC's back in 2004. You may want to use them as basis for today's negotiations, but don't be surprised if they will just be ignored as being irrelevant. You are forgetting one fundamental change that has happened VP, and that Cyprus is now in the EU. This has changed the course of history for Cyprus and Cypriots for the future and no longer business as usual as the case was from 1974-2004. It's time for you to make a leap forward and negotiate a just and fair deal for all Cypriots and not just and fair deal for yourself.


So are you saying the EU adopt double standards one for before the GCs entered the EU and one for after? Doesn't really instill trust or confidence in TCs who doubt the impartiality of EU due to unkept promises.


The EU never gave promises...Individuals shot their mouths off prior to checking with the legal department...

But if you think they did...you know the drill...

:arrow: LINKS :?:
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