Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Obviously BBF has a number of unpalatable provisions (especially for those that have been brought to believe that "the Turk is nothing more than a barbarian savage") but this is the price we will pay for our bad past.

No offence intended but did any of your parents lock you up in a cupboard and/or punish you severely when you were naughty as a kid?

It is a small price if you ask me,...

So what do you suppose would be an appropriate punishment for Cyprus having been so very-very naughty?

[Nikitas]

Bananiot,

IF each zone has a majority community and a minority, then I sure as hell hope we are not going to start the same old minority crap we had in the past.

This time there is a hopeful third factor in the talks, the EU and its contribution in the form of experts who will be advising both communities, as well as the UN mediators, how things are expected to be in a EU member state. This should keep us out of any Annan like traps. There is also the confirmed participation in the Eurozone and avoidance of all the economic coordination hardships that the Annan plan was trying to fix but could not.

We will know in two months time how far we have progressed in the last four years.

[Piratis]

The only thing that disquised the Annan plan as a unification plan was its label. Nothing more. In everything else there was a clear separation and division in everything, and even worst this division was disporortional giving to the TC minority and Turkey huge gains on our loss. Only an idiot would vote in favor of that plan (unless he is a Turk of course).

I agree with you on most points apart from the majority and minority question. Maybe I'm influenced by the British political scene where the Scots Irish and Welsh are never referred to as minorities , the Asians and other immigrants are referred to as ethnic minorities which is correct but indigenous British people such as the Scots Irish and Welsh are not.The same applies to the T/Cs , they are Cypriots first and as such are in the majority just as the G/Cs are . Lets make them feel more Cypriots by abandoning some of our own perceptions of the identity of Cyprus. Let us pay homage to the Cypriot image and identity leaving aside the well nurtured opposite !

The Scottish, Welsh and Irish are people that existed in that area for at least as long as the English did (some of them maybe longer) and they have their own separate regions. So don't confuse irrelevant things.

In any case this is not about labels. Labels are the least important thing. what is important is that all citizens are equal without racist discriminations.

[Piratis]

Your a worthy pupil of your fascist protege Piratis. You claim that 24% of the Greek Cypriots that voted for the Annan Plan are either fools or Turks. You never learn do you? Yet you claim to be a democrat but you cannot stand the different opinion. Very sad indeed.

I guess we have the same teacher then, because you also claim that the 76% that voted against the Annan plan are either fools or traitors, and you can not stand the different opinion. After all it is you who started a thread (again) to accuse the ones with different opinion as Hooligans, isn't it?

So why can't you accept that the majority of the Cypriot people do not want the Annan plan or anything like it Bananiot?

Bizonality means two zones Miltiades and in each zone the respective community will enjoy majority status. Is that okay with you?

Thats not OK. Thats barely acceptable as a huge compromise as long as the two zones are only Cypriot zones which are under a democratically elected Cypriot government.

What the Annan plan proposed was one Greek and one Turkish zone which would not be under one democratically elected Cypriot government but mostly separate from each other in a very loose confederation.

The only thing that would "unite" us is that we would share with TCs 50%-50% our foreign policy, meaning that Turkey would have the ability to silence Cypriots in EU, UN and everywhere else.

Say for example that Turkey didn't even give the peanuts she was supposed to give based on that agreement, Cyprus would not even have the power to veto Turkey in EU or anywhere else, because TCs would not allow us to do such thing!

[Kifeas]

Bizonality means two zones Miltiades and in each zone the respective community will enjoy majority status. Is that okay with you?

It is okay with most GCs, provided that:

1.) The zone (state) institutions will not be based on purely ethnic agendas and guidelines, and will not discriminate on civil, social and cultural rights between their majority and minority permanent residents (or internal citizens) of each state, on the basis of their ethnic orientation or background. As it is well known, the Anan plan which you so pathetically accepted, was nothing of this sort.

2.) None of the two communities should have the explicit right to assume that because they are the assigned majority in one of the two states (zones,) that this automatically means or implies that this zone or state is of the one or the other community's sole ethnic ownership or private (sub)homeland. As it is well known, the Anan plan was nothing of this sort.

3.) The way community based majority /minority intra-state populations will be achieved, should not be in the expense or the responsibility of only the one of the two communities, but the burden of securing such a requirement should be equally dispersed. The TCs cannot possibly or logically expect that they will be given a state or a zone in which they want to be majority, and which will be substantially larger than their overall demographic and property ratio, and at the same time expect that the only ones to be restricted in settling into this zone -as a percentage of their own (TC) population, will be the GCs, even if half of them (TCs) will choose to remain into “their” zone as permanent residents in the long run. The states should in theory be able to absorb an equivalent to their territorial size Cypriot population, and not one state with 28% of territory and 45% of the coastlines to have only 20% of the total population of the country, and the other one the rest! Again, as it is well known, the Anan plan was nothing of this sort!

No part of Cyprus has ever historically been of the exclusive habitation and /or ownership of any of the two communities, and both communities have their cultural heritage and ancestral human presence in all parts of Cyprus, on an equivalent footing, therefore the solution should either directly or indirectly accommodate and /or reflect this historical reality. The TCs should not expect the 1974 ethnic cleansing to be accommodated and legalized by the GCs as a Turkish national fait accompli, on which the TCs may or will be able to base their whatever long run irredentist nationalist agendas, in the expense of the GC community and its historical rights in all and every part of Cyprus.

PS: And because I know that you (Bananiot) will not carefully read, more so to try and understand what I am saying above, and will come back with your usual distortions and aphorisms against my ideas and suggestions; simply because what I want as a GC originating from the north does not match or fully coincide with what your irredentist TC friends want to achieve; I would like to tell you in advance to piss off!

[BirKibrisli]

Bizonality means two zones Miltiades and in each zone the respective community will enjoy majority status. Is that okay with you?

It is okay with most GCs, provided that:

1.) The zone (state) institutions will not be based on purely ethnic agendas and guidelines, and will not discriminate on civil, social and cultural rights between their majority and minority permanent residents (or internal citizens) of each state, on the basis of their ethnic orientation or background. As it is well known, the Anan plan which you so pathetically accepted, was nothing of this sort.

2.) None of the two communities should have the explicit right to assume that because they are the assigned majority in one of the two states (zones,) that this automatically means or implies that this zone or state is of the one or the other community's sole ethnic ownership or private (sub)homeland. As it is well known, the Anan plan was nothing of this sort.

3.) The way community based majority /minority intra-state populations will be achieved, should not be in the expense or the responsibility of only the one of the two communities, but the burden of securing such a requirement should be equally dispersed. The TCs cannot possibly or logically expect that they will be given a state or a zone in which they want to be majority, and which will be substantially larger than their overall demographic and property ratio, and at the same time expect that the only ones to be restricted in settling into this zone -as a percentage of their own (TC) population, will be the GCs, even if half of them (TCs) will choose to remain into “their” zone as permanent residents in the long run. The states should in theory be able to absorb an equivalent to their territorial size Cypriot population, and not one state with 28% of territory and 45% of the coastlines to have only 20% of the total population of the country, and the other one the rest! Again, as it is well known, the Anan plan was nothing of this sort!

No part of Cyprus has ever historically been of the exclusive habitation and /or ownership of any of the two communities, and both communities have their cultural heritage and ancestral human presence in all parts of Cyprus, on an equivalent footing, therefore the solution should either directly or indirectly accommodate and /or reflect this historical reality. The TCs should not expect the 1974 ethnic cleansing to be accommodated and legalized by the GCs as a Turkish national fait accompli, on which the TCs may or will be able to base their whatever long run irredentist nationalist agendas, in the expense of the GC community and its historical rights in all and every part of Cyprus.

PS: And because I know that you (Bananiot) will not carefully read, more so to try and understand what I am saying above, and will come back with your usual distortions and aphorisms against my ideas and suggestions; simply because what I want as a GC originating from the north does not match or fully coincide with what your irredentist TC friends want to achieve; I would like to tell you in advance to piss off!

I think I can live with a BBF as Kifeas is specifying here,as long as the ultimate aim is to progress to a democratic Unitary state without any ethnic privileges...I am more and more convinced that for the benefit of the future generations of Cypriots, the cancer of ethnicity and foreign- driven nationalistic viruses must be eliminated...I can see that this might take some time,and I am willing to accept an interim solution such as you are suggesting,Kifeas...

[Viewpoint]

Bananiot,

IF each zone has a majority community and a minority, then I sure as hell hope we are not going to start the same old minority crap we had in the past.

This time there is a hopeful third factor in the talks, the EU and its contribution in the form of experts who will be advising both communities, as well as the UN mediators, how things are expected to be in a EU member state. This should keep us out of any Annan like traps. There is also the confirmed participation in the Eurozone and avoidance of all the economic coordination hardships that the Annan plan was trying to fix but could not.

We will know in two months time how far we have progressed in the last four years.

They were there during the AP so that really blows your theory our of the water.

[Viewpoint]

The only thing that disquised the Annan plan as a unification plan was its label. Nothing more. In everything else there was a clear separation and division in everything, and even worst this division was disporortional giving to the TC minority and Turkey huge gains on our loss. Only an idiot would vote in favor of that plan (unless he is a Turk of course).

I agree with you on most points apart from the majority and minority question. Maybe I'm influenced by the British political scene where the Scots Irish and Welsh are never referred to as minorities , the Asians and other immigrants are referred to as ethnic minorities which is correct but indigenous British people such as the Scots Irish and Welsh are not.The same applies to the T/Cs , they are Cypriots first and as such are in the majority just as the G/Cs are . Lets make them feel more Cypriots by abandoning some of our own perceptions of the identity of Cyprus. Let us pay homage to the Cypriot image and identity leaving aside the well nurtured opposite !

The Scottish, Welsh and Irish are people that existed in that area for at least as long as the English did (some of them maybe longer) and they have their own separate regions. So don't confuse irrelevant things.

In any case this is not about labels. Labels are the least important thing. what is important is that all citizens are equal without racist discriminations.

So you agree that we can be just like the Scots and English?

[boomerang]

The only thing that disquised the Annan plan as a unification plan was its label. Nothing more. In everything else there was a clear separation and division in everything, and even worst this division was disporortional giving to the TC minority and Turkey huge gains on our loss. Only an idiot would vote in favor of that plan (unless he is a Turk of course).

I agree with you on most points apart from the majority and minority question. Maybe I'm influenced by the British political scene where the Scots Irish and Welsh are never referred to as minorities , the Asians and other immigrants are referred to as ethnic minorities which is correct but indigenous British people such as the Scots Irish and Welsh are not.The same applies to the T/Cs , they are Cypriots first and as such are in the majority just as the G/Cs are . Lets make them feel more Cypriots by abandoning some of our own perceptions of the identity of Cyprus. Let us pay homage to the Cypriot image and identity leaving aside the well nurtured opposite !

The Scottish, Welsh and Irish are people that existed in that area for at least as long as the English did (some of them maybe longer) and they have their own separate regions. So don't confuse irrelevant things.

In any case this is not about labels. Labels are the least important thing. what is important is that all citizens are equal without racist discriminations.

So you agree that we can be just like the Scots and English?

Sure once you reverse the ethnic cleansing...

[Viewpoint]

Bizonality means two zones Miltiades and in each zone the respective community will enjoy majority status. Is that okay with you?

It is okay with most GCs, provided that:

1.) The zone (state) institutions will not be based on purely ethnic agendas and guidelines, and will not discriminate on civil, social and cultural rights between their majority and minority permanent residents (or internal citizens) of each state, on the basis of their ethnic orientation or background. As it is well known, the Anan plan which you so pathetically accepted, was nothing of this sort.

2.) None of the two communities should have the explicit right to assume that because they are the assigned majority in one of the two states (zones,) that this automatically means or implies that this zone or state is of the one or the other community's sole ethnic ownership or private (sub)homeland. As it is well known, the Anan plan was nothing of this sort.

3.) The way community based majority /minority intra-state populations will be achieved, should not be in the expense or the responsibility of only the one of the two communities, but the burden of securing such a requirement should be equally dispersed. The TCs cannot possibly or logically expect that they will be given a state or a zone in which they want to be majority, and which will be substantially larger than their overall demographic and property ratio, and at the same time expect that the only ones to be restricted in settling into this zone -as a percentage of their own (TC) population, will be the GCs, even if half of them (TCs) will choose to remain into “their” zone as permanent residents in the long run. The states should in theory be able to absorb an equivalent to their territorial size Cypriot population, and not one state with 28% of territory and 45% of the coastlines to have only 20% of the total population of the country, and the other one the rest! Again, as it is well known, the Anan plan was nothing of this sort!

No part of Cyprus has ever historically been of the exclusive habitation and /or ownership of any of the two communities, and both communities have their cultural heritage and ancestral human presence in all parts of Cyprus, on an equivalent footing, therefore the solution should either directly or indirectly accommodate and /or reflect this historical reality. The TCs should not expect the 1974 ethnic cleansing to be accommodated and legalized by the GCs as a Turkish national fait accompli, on which the TCs may or will be able to base their whatever long run irredentist nationalist agendas, in the expense of the GC community and its historical rights in all and every part of Cyprus.

PS: And because I know that you (Bananiot) will not carefully read, more so to try and understand what I am saying above, and will come back with your usual distortions and aphorisms against my ideas and suggestions; simply because what I want as a GC originating from the north does not match or fully coincide with what your irredentist TC friends want to achieve; I would like to tell you in advance to piss off!

I think I can live with a BBF as Kifeas is specifying here,as long as the ultimate aim is to progress to a democratic Unitary state without any ethnic privileges...I am more and more convinced that for the benefit of the future generations of Cypriots, the cancer of ethnicity and foreign- driven nationalistic viruses must be eliminated...I can see that this might take some time,and I am willing to accept an interim solution such as you are suggesting,Kifeas...

Hand on heart you believe this can be achieved 100% with GCs' please allow me to have my doubts due to their past track record. Your best mate miltiades says quite honestly that GCs have to provide concrete and real steps to show that they can share with TCs without their racists and discrimination actions of the past.