Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

The Annan Plan allowed for a negotiated reduction of TC land to 29% because some GCs would return home. If there is partition no GCs would move into the new TC stats so the 29% would be reduced. The end result would be a figure somewhere between 18% and 29%, it depends how much haggling goes on.

The fairest way to determine land ownership would surely be the figures pre 1960. I believe the British paid the TCs compensation for Evkaf land.
If you want to take the argument of who has owned the land for the longest to the extreme then go back to 1571 - the TCs would get nothing.

... but you might find that the Italians get quite a bit as the Turks captured Cyprus from the Venetians!

[Kifeas]

Actually, I understand everything about the above arguments except where the 18 percent comes from.
It seems to me that you can either have a settlement based on brute force, or one that is based on international law and a sense of natural justice. The latter, I would argue, involves the notion of universality. A thesis that screams Δεν Ξεχνώ (rightly, in my view) in respect of every single donum of stolen GC property cannot develop amnesia in respect of TC owned property, if it is not to fall foul of this principle. Yet, to come up with this figure of 18 percent you need to develop just such a sense of amnesia. Surely, if nothing else, there is no doubt in Cyprus as to who holds title to property under domestic and international law. The arguments used to justify this 18 percent are specious. Title to property in any jursidiction governed by the rule of law do not depend on how far back your lineage stretches within the geographical area covered by that jurisdiction. I have quite legally acquired a flat in Cyprus, but I have only lived here for three and a half years and have no Cypriot ancestry whatsoever. Does that mean that somebody can come along and say that since he can trace his lineage backto the neolithic setllement in Choirokita, he has title to my property and not me? I don't think so. If a Turkish Cypriot can demonstrate that he is of linovambaki lineage, does this strengthen his title to his property on the grounds that his lineage in Cyprus stretches back further than 500 years? No it does not. Title to property is not conditional on racial or linguistic origin or lineage. There is no legal basis under Cypriot or international law for making such claims. The TCs collectively have title to all the land registered to individual members of their community or TC foundations (mainly the Evkaf) as recorded with the Land Registry. It has nothing to do with population. To my mind, a just and lasting settlement will involve respecting all such property rights, and either returning all property to its true owners or, failing that, providing fair compensation in the form of exchange or monetary payments. I do not understand why the Turkish Cypriots should voluntarily consent to a settlemet that says "I forget" in respect of a portion of their property.

Tim, the last time I checked, it was the TC leadership that colluded with Turkey to invade Cyprus in order to partition the island, it is the TCs that declared their illegal separate state in Cyprus, it is the TCs that demanded the splitting of Cyprus into federative zones, and as soon as we accepted it they shifted to a confederative disguised partition under the label of a BBF, and it is the TCs that threaten us every 5 minutes that if we do not accommodate their separatists agendas and pursuits, they will try to take what they have illegally grabbed and occupied in 1974 and run away to seek recognition! Don't you think all that you have written above, you should instead directed it towards the TCs, instead of directing them to me, GC? Don’t you think your questions are more proper to be answered by the TCs first, since it is them that have been aiming to their separatist ideas in the first place? I do think so!

As for where the 18% comes from, simply because the TCs are the 18% of the population, plus that their property ownership as TC individuals was only 12.3% of the territory of Cyprus or about 17% of the total private property! Does it take a genius to figure out where the 18% comes from? If and since they want separation and the rest of the illegitimate things they are asking, then they can have it but only on this basis! Why is it so difficult for you to understand what even they themselves seem not to have any difficulty to comprehend?

[Kifeas]

The Annan Plan allowed for a negotiated reduction of TC land to 29% because some GCs would return home. If there is partition no GCs would move into the new TC stats so the 29% would be reduced. The end result would be a figure somewhere between 18% and 29%, it depends how much haggling goes on.

The fairest way to determine land ownership would surely be the figures pre 1960. I believe the British paid the TCs compensation for Evkaf land.
If you want to take the argument of who has owned the land for the longest to the extreme then go back to 1571 - the TCs would get nothing.

Jerry, fuck the Anan plan! It received 76% rejection from the GCs -even the refugees, because it was a scandalous joke! Forget what assumptions it made, because it was a completely biased plan in order to open Turkeys EU accession road, and not to solve the Cyprus issue on any logical and fairness basis!

[Jerry]

The Annan Plan allowed for a negotiated reduction of TC land to 29% because some GCs would return home. If there is partition no GCs would move into the new TC stats so the 29% would be reduced. The end result would be a figure somewhere between 18% and 29%, it depends how much haggling goes on.

The fairest way to determine land ownership would surely be the figures pre 1960. I believe the British paid the TCs compensation for Evkaf land.
If you want to take the argument of who has owned the land for the longest to the extreme then go back to 1571 - the TCs would get nothing.

Jerry, fuck the Anan plan! It received 76% rejection from the GCs -even the refugees, because it was a scandalous joke! Forget what assumptions it made, because it was a completely biased plan in order to open Turkeys EU accession road, and not to solve the Cyprus issue on any logical and fairness basis!

I don't disagree with that, the point is in principle they have agreed to a division of Cyprus. Who gets what in the event of partition would have to be negotiated,

[Nikitas]

"Unfortunate choice of words considering that Tim Drayton started this change of direction by making comparisons with Nazi ghettos."

Which is precisely why the phrase "final solution" was in quotation marks. It was an ironic reference to Nazism which is what partition is based on. Partition in all its guises, including all this bizonal crap that is bandied about as if it is the solution to all our problems.

[bilako22]

Right, so how do you suppose they'll get past the Cypriot veto while hanging onto a sizeable chunk of Cyprus?

They would not have the guts to use it , plonker

Is that an "educated guess" or wishful thinking?

Neither . The GCs are too cowardly to take such action

We will use our veto if need be. Do not worry about that you clown.

But since so many other countries are so eager to veto Turkey's arse out of the EU, all we have to do is sit back and laugh.

You rely on other countries for support because of your cowardly natures . When it comes to the Cyprus veto you guys will be pissing in your pants , plonker.

[Viewpoint]

Actually, I understand everything about the above arguments except where the 18 percent comes from.
It seems to me that you can either have a settlement based on brute force, or one that is based on international law and a sense of natural justice. The latter, I would argue, involves the notion of universality. A thesis that screams Δεν Ξεχνώ (rightly, in my view) in respect of every single donum of stolen GC property cannot develop amnesia in respect of TC owned property, if it is not to fall foul of this principle. Yet, to come up with this figure of 18 percent you need to develop just such a sense of amnesia. Surely, if nothing else, there is no doubt in Cyprus as to who holds title to property under domestic and international law. The arguments used to justify this 18 percent are specious. Title to property in any jursidiction governed by the rule of law do not depend on how far back your lineage stretches within the geographical area covered by that jurisdiction. I have quite legally acquired a flat in Cyprus, but I have only lived here for three and a half years and have no Cypriot ancestry whatsoever. Does that mean that somebody can come along and say that since he can trace his lineage backto the neolithic setllement in Choirokita, he has title to my property and not me? I don't think so. If a Turkish Cypriot can demonstrate that he is of linovambaki lineage, does this strengthen his title to his property on the grounds that his lineage in Cyprus stretches back further than 500 years? No it does not. Title to property is not conditional on racial or linguistic origin or lineage. There is no legal basis under Cypriot or international law for making such claims. The TCs collectively have title to all the land registered to individual members of their community or TC foundations (mainly the Evkaf) as recorded with the Land Registry. It has nothing to do with population. To my mind, a just and lasting settlement will involve respecting all such property rights, and either returning all property to its true owners or, failing that, providing fair compensation in the form of exchange or monetary payments. I do not understand why the Turkish Cypriots should voluntarily consent to a settlemet that says "I forget" in respect of a portion of their property.

Tim, the last time I checked, it was the TC leadership that colluded with Turkey to invade Cyprus in order to partition the island, it is the TCs that declared their illegal separate state in Cyprus, it is the TCs that demanded the splitting of Cyprus into federative zones, and as soon as we accepted it they shifted to a confederative disguised partition under the label of a BBF, and it is the TCs that threaten us every 5 minutes that if we do not accommodate their separatists agendas and pursuits, they will try to take what they have illegally grabbed and occupied in 1974 and run away to seek recognition! Don't you think all that you have written above, you should instead directed it towards the TCs, instead of directing them to me, GC? Don’t you think your questions are more proper to be answered by the TCs first, since it is them that have been aiming to their separatist ideas in the first place? I do think so!

As for where the 18% comes from, simply because the TCs are the 18% of the population, plus that their property ownership as TC individuals was only 12.3% of the territory of Cyprus or about 17% of the total private property! Does it take a genius to figure out where the 18% comes from? If and since they want separation and the rest of the illegitimate things they are asking, then they can have it but only on this basis! Why is it so difficult for you to understand what even they themselves seem not to have any difficulty to comprehend?

Kifeas your enosis dream was the cause of division, you never thought Turkey would take action so you tried to push the only thing in your way to one side by using the isolation method but it backfired you lost, lost your dream for gifting Cyprus to Greece but we won, won our right to a safe haven where we are not imposed upon, discriminated and killed by GCs.

[bilako22]

Right, so how do you suppose they'll get past the Cypriot veto while hanging onto a sizeable chunk of Cyprus?

They would not have the guts to use it , plonker

Is that an "educated guess" or wishful thinking?

Neither . The GCs are too cowardly to take such action

"bilako," live the slogans aside and let us know what will you have to say, when the RoC will indeed use its veto right against Turkey's EU accession?

The cowardly Greeks in the ROC will do no such thing. In the unlikely event that there is a Greek brave enough to veto Turkey you can all kiss good-bye to your prosperity and way of life.

Can you enlighten us as to how this might come about,bilako???

Are you talking about trade embargoes? Naval and aerial blockades???
Non-recognition of the RoC by Turkey???

Look at Syria in Lebanon, Russia in Georgia , Iran in Iraq and Israel in Palestine to see what neighboring nations can do when upset . It would not take much action by a very angry turkey to ruin the economy of little ROC., plonker.

[Get Real!]

You rely on other countries for support because of your cowardly natures.

So the Turkish Cypriots are brave for calling Turkey to save their sorry arse, but the Greek Cypriots are cowards for losing to Turkey…

Sit down, SHUT UP, and quit embarrassing your people with thoughtless posts you incompetent fool...

[Get Real!]

It would not take much action by a very angry turkey to ruin the economy of little ROC., plonker.

Problem is you aren’t Turkey little clown, but a pissy enclave called "TRNC" and every time the RoC sneezes you catch a cold...