Cyprus-Forum.com

[tessintrnc]

Perhaps Oracle, you can elaborate how you think Turkey "will destroy the EU from the inside"?

The EU has reached its near-optimal size. It does not now need an injection of 70 Million people.

Although not a Christian Club by any means - something I would oppose, as do the majority .... it has cohesion through a shared moral and cultural history which serves to unite it.

Turkey has forced its way into the European psyche not like a friend, but as an enemy of Europe ... no shared ideology ... no shared exchange of history (going back thousands of years as opposed to hundreds, predominantly violent) .... but only Barbarism, invasion and usurpation.

Turkey has not shown itself to serve any interests but its own. To this day it denies atrocities with a blindness, which if brought into the heart of Europe, would infuriate and tear asunder .

They are the perpetual wrongdoers ... the consistently disruptive ... the abominably greedy, expansionist, unstable malevolent that would be best suited in isolation.. No communal spirit

Just accept it ... you do not fit in, you are not wanted and the more you try to force your way in, the more we realise you have a vested interest which is not for the good of the EU but yours.

So why do you think they want to join so much?

What does Turkey have to offer Europe, that Europe will suffer if it lacked?

[i][b]And the million dollar question which nobody can answer ... why is it only the other misfit UK, and complete outsider USA .... that make the greatest noise for Turkey to join?[/i][/b]Judge me by my friends .... has never been more apt.

Now are you going to reciprocate? ... because CopperLine has done his usual post meaningless rhetoric, then leave without answering any points.

And what about the support for Turkey to join the EU from Bulgaria, Poland, Greece, Slovenia, Spain, the Nordic countries, Italy (at least until the recent elections and perhaps still so), Romania et al.

Is it that you are ignorant of the facts or is it alzheimers?

Not ignorant methinks, but just a bit "selective" of what facts she is prepared to impart.

[Khan]

To Oracle, since you said you would read and digest what I wrote, do you believe some of the facts I pointed out highlight some inconsistencies in your argument?

To Boomerang and Get Real, if you would like a good article on the Turkish defense industry, see: http://uk.equilibri.net/article/9401/Tu ... e_Industry - you have to pay for the article but its very good.

To Kifeas, since I have not attacked you or anyone here, why would you choose to address me as a bigot? Perhaps if you spoke in a more civilised manner I would answer your question.

To Viewpoint, I'm aware some people on this forum harbor a lot of enmity towards Turkey, Turkish people and Turkish Cypriots. Maybe it is still possible to highlight the irrationality of some their arguments though?...

[Oracle]

.... [Note for Oracle : that's a rhetorical question] ....

... [Note for Oracle : this is a real question] ...

... [Note for myself : I'm not interested in Oracle's answer] ...

CopperLine is making notes on me .....


Darling CL ... am I getting under your skin?

(Rhetorical .... )

[Oracle]

Khan, these were the questions I asked you ....

So why do you think they want to join so much?

What does Turkey have to offer Europe, that Europe will suffer if it lacked?

And the million dollar question which nobody can answer ... why is it only the other misfit UK, and complete outsider USA .... that make the greatest noise for Turkey to join?

CopperLiar has been avoiding the same ...

I'll read and digest what you've written above ... But I would seriously like an answer to those three, otherwise I may have to start another thread ......

(BTW ... no other country has gone out of its way to support Turkey ... not objecting is not enough!)

I've already answered your third point, UK and USA are NOT the only countries to actively SUPPORT Turkey's accession. Greece for example actively supports Turkey's accession when it opposes Austrian attempts to downgrade Turkeys membership prospects to "privileged partner".

No Khan, Greece does not actively support Turkey's entry to the EU. When asked, it does not oppose ..... since plenty others do! ..... Same goes for all the other countries...... not one actively supports Turkey's entry into the EU; except the misfit UK and outsider USA ....

Unless you can provide evidence of a country, which without being asked to, pushed or queried, has come out through the goodness of their heart and from strong desire to positively request for Turkey to be admitted, then my point still stands. I am not just talking about political posturing here ... I am inferring strong desires from having a firm belief there is good reason for Turkey's inclusion ....

Therefore ... UK and USA only!

With regard to your other points, why does Turkey want to join so much? Turkey was founded by Ataturk on the basis that Turkey would be a secular, democratic republic as inspired by western nations. Turkey's democratic system, its laws and constitution have all been inspired by Europe and it rightly feels that its political destiny belongs in EU.

That is Turkey's concern not Europe's ... Ataturk's misguided notions mean nothing to Europeans ... a pale attempt at imitation does not make you worthy of being accepted ...

Will is not enough ... lack of substance is far more damning!

What does Turkey have to offer? A heck of a lot more than any of the previous members since 2004. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, as part of the EU it would allow for the creation of an effective European force which has been talked about but never fully implemented.

Turkey has nothing positive to offer Europe, that it would suffer from one iota if not granted by Turkey being in, rather than out ....

Besides, we do not want your army or war mentality contaminating European pacifism.

That offer deducts you points, not improves your chances. Get civilised for your own sakes

With its borders touching the Middle East the EU would gain a more influential foothold in one of the most strategically important parts of the world. If Turkey can become prosperous and stable as part of the EU, then there is every chance that democratic values can spread to the likes of Syria, Iran and the greater Middle East also.

Not necessary nowadays.

Less requirements for middle-men such as Turkey ... We can communicate effectively with all these countries, directly.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Besides you are viewed with some disdain by most of those countries anyway. ... why should we be tainted by association with the likes of backstabbing Turkey?

There is also the ideological factor. When people are talking about a clash of civilizations, bringing Turkey into the EU is hugely symbolic in showing that Christian and Muslim nations can co-exist peacefully. Rejecting Turkey gives fuel to those who say this is not possible and propagate conflict between the two.

Outdated view ... No place for religion in European politics...

Beside you have not quite made your minds up whether you are pious or secular

Finally Turkey is becoming an energy conduit, that means energy from Central Asia will be piped into Europe through Turkey so Europe is no longer reliant on Russian gas.

Most minor point and short-termist view, as the future is not in oil but nuclear energy + others.

[Viewpoint]

Khan, these were the questions I asked you ....

So why do you think they want to join so much?

What does Turkey have to offer Europe, that Europe will suffer if it lacked?

And the million dollar question which nobody can answer ... why is it only the other misfit UK, and complete outsider USA .... that make the greatest noise for Turkey to join?

CopperLiar has been avoiding the same ...

I'll read and digest what you've written above ... But I would seriously like an answer to those three, otherwise I may have to start another thread ......

(BTW ... no other country has gone out of its way to support Turkey ... not objecting is not enough!)

I've already answered your third point, UK and USA are NOT the only countries to actively SUPPORT Turkey's accession. Greece for example actively supports Turkey's accession when it opposes Austrian attempts to downgrade Turkeys membership prospects to "privileged partner".

No Khan, Greece does not actively support Turkey's entry to the EU. When asked, it does not oppose ..... since plenty others do! ..... Same goes for all the other countries...... not one actively supports Turkey's entry into the EU; except the misfit UK and outsider USA ....

Unless you can provide evidence of a country, which without being asked to, pushed or queried, has come out through the goodness of their heart and from strong desire to positively request for Turkey to be admitted, then my point still stands. I am not just talking about political posturing here ... I am inferring strong desires from having a firm belief there is good reason for Turkey's inclusion ....

Therefore ... UK and USA only!

With regard to your other points, why does Turkey want to join so much? Turkey was founded by Ataturk on the basis that Turkey would be a secular, democratic republic as inspired by western nations. Turkey's democratic system, its laws and constitution have all been inspired by Europe and it rightly feels that its political destiny belongs in EU.

That is Turkey's concern not Europe's ... Ataturk's misguided notions mean nothing to Europeans ... a pale attempt at imitation does not make you worthy of being accepted ...

Will is not enough ... lack of substance is far more damning!

What does Turkey have to offer? A heck of a lot more than any of the previous members since 2004. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, as part of the EU it would allow for the creation of an effective European force which has been talked about but never fully implemented.

Turkey has nothing positive to offer Europe, that it would suffer from one iota if not granted by Turkey being in, rather than out ....

Besides, we do not want your army or war mentality contaminating European pacifism.

That offer deducts you points, not improves your chances. Get civilised for your own sakes

With its borders touching the Middle East the EU would gain a more influential foothold in one of the most strategically important parts of the world. If Turkey can become prosperous and stable as part of the EU, then there is every chance that democratic values can spread to the likes of Syria, Iran and the greater Middle East also.

Not necessary nowadays.

Less requirements for middle-men such as Turkey ... We can communicate effectively with all these countries, directly.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Besides you are viewed with some disdain by most of those countries anyway. ... why should we be tainted by association with the likes of backstabbing Turkey?

There is also the ideological factor. When people are talking about a clash of civilizations, bringing Turkey into the EU is hugely symbolic in showing that Christian and Muslim nations can co-exist peacefully. Rejecting Turkey gives fuel to those who say this is not possible and propagate conflict between the two.

Outdated view ... No place for religion in European politics...

Beside you have not quite made your minds up whether you are pious or secular

Finally Turkey is becoming an energy conduit, that means energy from Central Asia will be piped into Europe through Turkey so Europe is no longer reliant on Russian gas.

Most minor point and short-termist view, as the future is not in oil but nuclear energy + others.

So much venom invalidates you whole shitty argument, you need medical help.

[Viewpoint]

Khan, these were the questions I asked you ....

So why do you think they want to join so much?

What does Turkey have to offer Europe, that Europe will suffer if it lacked?

And the million dollar question which nobody can answer ... why is it only the other misfit UK, and complete outsider USA .... that make the greatest noise for Turkey to join?

CopperLiar has been avoiding the same ...

I'll read and digest what you've written above ... But I would seriously like an answer to those three, otherwise I may have to start another thread ......

(BTW ... no other country has gone out of its way to support Turkey ... not objecting is not enough!)

I've already answered your third point, UK and USA are NOT the only countries to actively SUPPORT Turkey's accession. Greece for example actively supports Turkey's accession when it opposes Austrian attempts to downgrade Turkeys membership prospects to "privileged partner".

No Khan, Greece does not actively support Turkey's entry to the EU. When asked, it does not oppose ..... since plenty others do! ..... Same goes for all the other countries...... not one actively supports Turkey's entry into the EU; except the misfit UK and outsider USA ....

Unless you can provide evidence of a country, which without being asked to, pushed or queried, has come out through the goodness of their heart and from strong desire to positively request for Turkey to be admitted, then my point still stands. I am not just talking about political posturing here ... I am inferring strong desires from having a firm belief there is good reason for Turkey's inclusion ....

Therefore ... UK and USA only!

With regard to your other points, why does Turkey want to join so much? Turkey was founded by Ataturk on the basis that Turkey would be a secular, democratic republic as inspired by western nations. Turkey's democratic system, its laws and constitution have all been inspired by Europe and it rightly feels that its political destiny belongs in EU.

That is Turkey's concern not Europe's ... Ataturk's misguided notions mean nothing to Europeans ... a pale attempt at imitation does not make you worthy of being accepted ...

Will is not enough ... lack of substance is far more damning!

What does Turkey have to offer? A heck of a lot more than any of the previous members since 2004. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, as part of the EU it would allow for the creation of an effective European force which has been talked about but never fully implemented.

Turkey has nothing positive to offer Europe, that it would suffer from one iota if not granted by Turkey being in, rather than out ....

Besides, we do not want your army or war mentality contaminating European pacifism.

That offer deducts you points, not improves your chances. Get civilised for your own sakes

With its borders touching the Middle East the EU would gain a more influential foothold in one of the most strategically important parts of the world. If Turkey can become prosperous and stable as part of the EU, then there is every chance that democratic values can spread to the likes of Syria, Iran and the greater Middle East also.

Not necessary nowadays.

Less requirements for middle-men such as Turkey ... We can communicate effectively with all these countries, directly.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Besides you are viewed with some disdain by most of those countries anyway. ... why should we be tainted by association with the likes of backstabbing Turkey?

There is also the ideological factor. When people are talking about a clash of civilizations, bringing Turkey into the EU is hugely symbolic in showing that Christian and Muslim nations can co-exist peacefully. Rejecting Turkey gives fuel to those who say this is not possible and propagate conflict between the two.

Outdated view ... No place for religion in European politics...

Beside you have not quite made your minds up whether you are pious or secular

Finally Turkey is becoming an energy conduit, that means energy from Central Asia will be piped into Europe through Turkey so Europe is no longer reliant on Russian gas.

Most minor point and short-termist view, as the future is not in oil but nuclear energy + others.

So much venom invalidates your whole shitty argument, you need medical help.

[Oracle]

It troubles you Viewpoint ... the fact that we are not fooled by Turkey's crimes.

Really VP; Damage to Europe:

Divided City .............. due to turkey
Divided country .......... due to Turkey
Ethnic cleansing .......... due to Turkey
Occupying troops .........due to Turkey

Those are just four recent crimes ... where do we begin to figure Turkey could possibly ever have a role to play in Europe?

Beside I thought you said Turkey was just pretending she wanted to join Europe ...

VP ... I think you were so upset, you must have "submitted" twice

[Eric dayi]

It troubles you Viewpoint ... the fact that we are not fooled by Turkey's crimes.

Really VP; Damage to Europe:

Divided City .............. due to turkey
Divided country .......... due to Turkey
Ethnic cleansing .......... due to Turkey
Occupying troops .........due to Turkey

Those are just four recent crimes ... where do we begin to figure Turkey could possibly ever have a role to play in Europe?

Beside I thought you said Turkey was just pretending she wanted to join Europe ...

VP ... I think you were so upset, you must have "submitted" twice

Cyprus is divided because of Greek and GC greed and expansionism dreams.


Had you Greeks and GCs kept your word all would have been living happily in an independent Cyprus but your greed cost you 1 third of the country.

You have no one but yourselves to blame for the divide and your loss.

[Mr. T]

Guided missiles and merchant ships dont win wars, boots on the ground do. That is why the US Vice President was in Ankara a few weeks ago begging Turkey to send troops to Afghanistan, because apparently the nuclear countries who could reduce Turkey to glass are incapable of subduing the rag tag militias of the Taliban...

This explains as to how "turkey=fascists state" is so successfull in win the the war against the PKK rag tag army...

Damn... and here I was thinking that Turkey are the rag-tag experts after defeating the rag-tag defenceless Cypriots in 1974!

Hey Khan, if you ever wondered why nobody recognizes the “TRNC”, the answer is because little Cyprus’ shipping and financial services industries are far more important to them than anything Turkey has to offer.

I guess you are joking about the point of the non-recognition of The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus because what you say is certainly a laugh. Southern Cyprus has a large shipping base purely because it has been so cheap to register ships here and has had a reputation for being a registration haven for unseaworthy vessels.

It may have a fledgling financial services industry greater than that of a couple of banana republics but bear in mind most people in this world do not even know of the existence of Cyprus never mind have a clue where it is. Tell them it is near Turkey and the numbers knowing where it is will increase substantially.

It is a safe bet that if the Cyprus problem is not sorted soon then countries will start to recognise it.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

Guided missiles and merchant ships dont win wars, boots on the ground do. That is why the US Vice President was in Ankara a few weeks ago begging Turkey to send troops to Afghanistan, because apparently the nuclear countries who could reduce Turkey to glass are incapable of subduing the rag tag militias of the Taliban...

This explains as to how "turkey=fascists state" is so successfull in win the the war against the PKK rag tag army...

Just for your information, guided missiles and planes do win wars...I refer you to the war against Serbia...Not a single foot soldier was used...

Further more there is a question about accesibility to spare parts...

Go and have a look at the poor state of the TAF armed forces...they do not even use the same headgear, and they are very similar to WW2 outfits...

1) The PKK survives because it is given safe haven in foreign countries. First Syria, now Iraq. In the case of Syria the threat of an invasion by Turkey in 1996 was enough to get them to expel Ocalan and his crew. In Iraq, as demonstrated in the last operation, Turkey can conduct short term incursions in the most inhospitable environment and still achieve its objectives i.e. destroying the Zap facilities.

2) Milosevic backed down when it was clear NATO was preparing a ground invasion, and when he did back down, it was 50,000 KFOR troops who made sure he didn't come back into Kosovo.

3) A question about accessibility to spare parts? Thats nonsense, where did you get this idea? Instead of being short of spare parts, Turkey in fact manufactures spare parts for the US under work share programs. That means in the case of the Joint Strike Fighter program, of which Turkey is a partner, that Ankara is given a share of the manufacture in exchange of purchasing the aircraft.

4) Look forget the headgear being the same, the point is can this army conduct effective operations, is it capable and can it project power? The answer in all cases is yes.

Khan the PKK doesnt get backed by the Iraq but by the Nortern Iraq Kurdish regime which has ethnically cleansed over 500,000 Armenians, Assyrians and Turkomans. God only knows how many Arabs. That region has a independant military from the rest of Iraq consisting of 175,000 men. The USA and Isreal have built them up to be used against Iran or Syria if they come into conflict with them. The USA also arms the PKK sister branch fighting in Iran which has no problem giving weapons to the PKK . Once this Kurdish region grabs territory from these 2 regions,it would follow that they will attempt the same in Turkey.The USA not the Republic of Iraq is responsible for this.