Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Boomerang,
You keep saying the same thing over and over again. Saying it once more doesn't make it any more true. Repeating that Turkey is incapable of change until you're blue in the face is not going to make Turkey change, is it ? [Note for Oracle : that's a rhetorical question]

So the question is - [Note for Oracle : this is a real question] - how will that change come about ? How can that change, hopefully positive change, be encouraged ? [Note for myself : I'm not interested in Oracle's answer] Of course Boomerang if your answer is 'Turkey can't/won't change' then there's bugger all any of us can do or say. If you answer that 'Turkey can/could change' then the subsequent questions are How ? and In what way ? and Why ? In that last trio of questions we might make some progress, for Turkey and for Cyprus.

[Khan]

Khan, these were the questions I asked you ....

So why do you think they want to join so much?

What does Turkey have to offer Europe, that Europe will suffer if it lacked?

And the million dollar question which nobody can answer ... why is it only the other misfit UK, and complete outsider USA .... that make the greatest noise for Turkey to join?

CopperLiar has been avoiding the same ...

I'll read and digest what you've written above ... But I would seriously like an answer to those three, otherwise I may have to start another thread ......

(BTW ... no other country has gone out of its way to support Turkey ... not objecting is not enough!)

I've already answered your third point, UK and USA are NOT the only countries to actively SUPPORT Turkey's accession. Greece for example actively supports Turkey's accession when it opposes Austrian attempts to downgrade Turkeys membership prospects to "privileged partner".

With regard to your other points, why does Turkey want to join so much? Turkey was founded by Ataturk on the basis that Turkey would be a secular, democratic republic as inspired by western nations. Turkey's democratic system, its laws and constitution have all been inspired by Europe and it rightly feels that its political destiny belongs in EU.

What does Turkey have to offer? A heck of a lot more than any of the previous members since 2004. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, as part of the EU it would allow for the creation of an effective European force which has been talked about but never fully implemented.

With its borders touching the Middle East the EU would gain a more influential foothold in one of the most strategically important parts of the world. If Turkey can become prosperous and stable as part of the EU, then there is every chance that democratic values can spread to the likes of Syria, Iran and the greater Middle East also.

There is also the ideological factor. When people are talking about a clash of civilizations, bringing Turkey into the EU is hugely symbolic in showing that Christian and Muslim nations can co-exist peacefully. Rejecting Turkey gives fuel to those who say this is not possible and propagate conflict between the two.

Finally Turkey is becoming an energy conduit, that means energy from Central Asia will be piped into Europe through Turkey so Europe is no longer reliant on Russian gas.

[ARMENIAN CYPRIOT]

I read an intersting article in the TDN that Turkey has to pay reparations for land taken from expelled Bulgarians during the 2nd Balkan War. From what the article says Turkey in 1925 promised this to Bulgaria.Bulgaria has brought this up to the EU and is now demanding the money. I am not sure why the Republic of Turkey would have made a promise for damages occured with the Ottomans, since they were also at war with Greece, Romania and Serbia.

[Viewpoint]

Well what is there to answer, you haven't said anything intelligent or argued anything substantial. Most of your statements are gross oversimplifications, ignorant, naive or just insulting.

You state Europe has been culturally and morally united, yet ignore the centuries of conflict between European nations. Consider who sacked Istanbul in the fourth crusade and why Loukas Notaras said "Better the Sultans turban than the popes tiara" as an example.

You say Turkey forced its way into the European psyche, and is not a friend of Europe. Perhaps you should consider that Turkey before its creation was occupied by European colonial powers and its lackey Greece, and it was they who entered Turkey as enemies and not friends.

You say Turkey is nation of violence and say nothing of the violence European nations have inflicted on the world on an industrial scale. Perhaps it does not fit into your argument to know that Greece has expanded its borders no less than 4 times through conflict, 5 if it succeeded in its invasion of Turkey, and 6 if it succeeded in Cyprus. Considering that Turkey has not expanded its borders once through conflict since 1923, how can you call them expansionist?

You say Turkey does not fit in, that they are not wanted, well neither was the UK wanted when it was Charles de Gaulle who vetoed them, and neither was Greece, or Portugal or Spain wanted because southern Europeans were at one stage not considered as sharing the same "values" as northern Europe.

You say only the UK and USA support Turkey when this is obviously wrong. Sweden, Finland, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece to name a few and even Cyprus support Turkeys candidacy. In fact, most nations political elite support Turkeys entry, even if they do not say it out loud. The simple reason is their membership makes sense politically and economically for Europe.

Excellent post Khan a breath of intelligent fresh air, well done.

[boomerang]

Boomerang,
You keep saying the same thing over and over again. Saying it once more doesn't make it any more true. Repeating that Turkey is incapable of change until you're blue in the face is not going to make Turkey change, is it ? [Note for Oracle : that's a rhetorical question]

So the question is - [Note for Oracle : this is a real question] - how will that change come about ? How can that change, hopefully positive change, be encouraged ? [Note for myself : I'm not interested in Oracle's answer] Of course Boomerang if your answer is 'Turkey can't/won't change' then there's bugger all any of us can do or say. If you answer that 'Turkey can/could change' then the subsequent questions are How ? and In what way ? and Why ? In that last trio of questions we might make some progress, for Turkey and for Cyprus.

Look Copperline every citizen of every country rightly deserves to live in a free democratic society...The question is who is holding them back?...and who has the right to change this?...

Its not a matter of she can't/won't, its a matter of letting go and accepting it...Unless the changes come from within, you go no hope in hell of imposing a change...

For example the AKP clearly won the elections with a large majory, around 47%...this clearly expresses the view that a mandate was awarded...Why then at every turn of the wheel these nationalists will not accept the will of or rather show respect and let them run the country?If they don't like what they see, vote them out....

The question you are asking is not me that needs to answer, its the people that will not accept changes to take place...

And now we come to the HOW...well copperline the will of the people was clearly expressed...in a democratic way...you tell me...

[Get Real!]

What does Turkey have to offer? A heck of a lot more than any of the previous members since 2004. Turkey has the second largest army in NATO, as part of the EU it would allow for the creation of an effective European force which has been talked about but never fully implemented.

The second largest army in NATO? Are you talking about head count? This is the guided missile age not the Ottoman cannon fodder age in case you haven’t realized yet...

Do you honestly believe that a military alliance between nuclear countries like France, Germany, Italy, the UK, and others that can turn Turkey into glass with a few mouse clicks, really need Turkey to defend them selves?

You give Turkey too much credit my friend. Even little Cyprus, with her 2,000 odd registered merchant ships, is far more useful to the EU than Turkey’s 70 million strong 3rd world starvation camp…

[Khan]

Guided missiles and merchant ships dont win wars, boots on the ground do. That is why the US Vice President was in Ankara a few weeks ago begging Turkey to send troops to Afghanistan, because apparently the nuclear countries who could reduce Turkey to glass are incapable of subduing the rag tag militias of the Taliban...

[boomerang]

Guided missiles and merchant ships dont win wars, boots on the ground do. That is why the US Vice President was in Ankara a few weeks ago begging Turkey to send troops to Afghanistan, because apparently the nuclear countries who could reduce Turkey to glass are incapable of subduing the rag tag militias of the Taliban...

This explains as to how "turkey=fascists state" is so successfull in win the the war against the PKK rag tag army...

Just for your information, guided missiles and planes do win wars...I refer you to the war against Serbia...Not a single foot soldier was used...

Further more there is a question about accesibility to spare parts...

Go and have a look at the poor state of the TAF armed forces...they do not even use the same headgear, and they are very similar to WW2 outfits...

[Get Real!]

Guided missiles and merchant ships dont win wars, boots on the ground do. That is why the US Vice President was in Ankara a few weeks ago begging Turkey to send troops to Afghanistan, because apparently the nuclear countries who could reduce Turkey to glass are incapable of subduing the rag tag militias of the Taliban...

So are you saying that Turkey is useful as the Ottoman cannon fodder in Afghanistan?

[Get Real!]

Guided missiles and merchant ships dont win wars, boots on the ground do. That is why the US Vice President was in Ankara a few weeks ago begging Turkey to send troops to Afghanistan, because apparently the nuclear countries who could reduce Turkey to glass are incapable of subduing the rag tag militias of the Taliban...

This explains as to how "turkey=fascists state" is so successfull in win the the war against the PKK rag tag army...

Damn... and here I was thinking that Turkey are the rag-tag experts after defeating the rag-tag defenceless Cypriots in 1974!

Hey Khan, if you ever wondered why nobody recognizes the “TRNC”, the answer is because little Cyprus’ shipping and financial services industries are far more important to them than anything Turkey has to offer.