Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Departure of the Turkish Army

The army is here to enforce the occupation the north part of our country.

You will agree for the Turkish army to leave only if we gift to you the north part of our country.

So in both cases you keep the north part of our country.

In the first case you keep it but you have consequences (and Turkey has to pay to maintain the army). In the second case you would keep it without any consequences (but with a lot of benefits) and without the need to maintain army.

Sounds great for you. But I hope you don't think we are that stupid to fall for that.

[CopperLine]

'what exactly ... are the tcs gonna bring to the unification table?'

Themselves. If the purpose is unification then there's no need to bring anything else. This is not a shop, a bank or 'trade and mart' ! There's no buying and selling, and there's no giving of dowry or receiving of gift.

Either TCs (and GCs) have rights or they don't. You don't trade rights. Either people want unification or they don't. But seeing what price people are prepare to pay is not going to move things on one jot.

I'd have thought that thirty plus years of attempted bargaining - of false promises and broken deals, on both sides - has left people rather jaded about 'bringing things to the table'.

Supposing you have nothing to bring to the table Boomerang ? Or supposing that whatever you try to bring to the table is rejected or refused ? Does that mean you lose your rights (because no one wants to 'buy' them) ? I don't think so.

We could give reconciliation - even unification - a chance just because we can, even if we've got nothing to offer.

[Piratis]

Either TCs (and GCs) have rights or they don't. You don't trade rights.

I 100% agree with this statement.

The only solution is freedom for Cyprus, democracy and human rights for all Cypriots. The TCs being a minority can also have the additional minority rights as given in every other democratic country.

[boomerang]

'what exactly ... are the tcs gonna bring to the unification table?'

Themselves. If the purpose is unification then there's no need to bring anything else. This is not a shop, a bank or 'trade and mart' ! There's no buying and selling, and there's no giving of dowry or receiving of gift.

Either TCs (and GCs) have rights or they don't. You don't trade rights. Either people want unification or they don't. But seeing what price people are prepare to pay is not going to move things on one jot.

I'd have thought that thirty plus years of attempted bargaining - of false promises and broken deals, on both sides - has left people rather jaded about 'bringing things to the table'.

Supposing you have nothing to bring to the table Boomerang ? Or supposing that whatever you try to bring to the table is rejected or refused ? Does that mean you lose your rights (because no one wants to 'buy' them) ? I don't think so.

We could give reconciliation - even unification - a chance just because we can, even if we've got nothing to offer.

True but at what cost to ones community...for example the Annan plan, from the gc point of view the risks far outweighted the gains...so the unification plan failed...get my drift copperline...

So the question remains...what exactly are the tcs bringing to the table as the tc demands were and still are the same today, as we are kindly reminded on daily basis...

[CopperLine]

Boomerang,
The senior politicians have been posturing in the same way for the best part of the island's division. We all know what the 'red lines' are. We all know - not least in this forum - that people just go round and round, repeat after repeat that it was 'your fault', 'you started it', 'you're not a Cypriot', 'you're an invader', 'your crimes are worse' ....ad nauseam. Senior politicians simply throw fuel on this endless cycle of hatred-stoking.

I don't think that anything new can be brought to the table, by any one. What can be brought to the table is a change in attitude. Maybe it will take a generation - for the fundamentalists of 74,63,58 whatever - to pass away before a new attitude can flourish.

[boomerang]

Boomerang,
The senior politicians have been posturing in the same way for the best part of the island's division. We all know what the 'red lines' are. We all know - not least in this forum - that people just go round and round, repeat after repeat that it was 'your fault', 'you started it', 'you're not a Cypriot', 'you're an invader', 'your crimes are worse' ....ad nauseam. Senior politicians simply throw fuel on this endless cycle of hatred-stoking.

I don't think that anything new can be brought to the table, by any one. What can be brought to the table is a change in attitude. Maybe it will take a generation - for the fundamentalists of 74,63,58 whatever - to pass away before a new attitude can flourish.

Again I am in agreement with you...but then this posses another question...why have unification talks today?...why not wait till maturity reaches and perception changes?...knowing the stand is still the same...

But after saying that the sad truth is we are facing unification talks today and not in the future...

So the question today still remains...what are the tcs bringing to the table?

PS...the gcs have changed their stand...the fact they are negotiating for a federation, is a major shift....can they tcs claim any concetions?

[Piratis]

Boomerang,
The senior politicians have been posturing in the same way for the best part of the island's division. We all know what the 'red lines' are. We all know - not least in this forum - that people just go round and round, repeat after repeat that it was 'your fault', 'you started it', 'you're not a Cypriot', 'you're an invader', 'your crimes are worse' ....ad nauseam. Senior politicians simply throw fuel on this endless cycle of hatred-stoking.

I don't think that anything new can be brought to the table, by any one. What can be brought to the table is a change in attitude. Maybe it will take a generation - for the fundamentalists of 74,63,58 whatever - to pass away before a new attitude can flourish.

Would you agree with this Cooperline:

We leave the past behind, and Cyprus becomes a free democratic country, all Cypriot citizens are equal to each other, and everybody has the 100% of his human rights.

No need to find out who started it or who is to blame.

It is very simple. So why doesn't this happen?

Maybe because some want to continue today in the same criminal way of the past because it suits them? What do you think?

[CopperLine]

Piratis,
I agree broadly with the sentiment regarding democracy and human rights. No problem there. I'm not convinced about leaving history behind though.

To continue the buying and selling metaphor, history is not like a bad purchase, a second hand car that you discover has got a knackered gearbox. To my mind the issue is how we deal with our history. One thing is for sure, and that is that it cannot be ignored or simply discounted. So I'm not advocating just forgetting about the traumas of the past, almost all of which have happened within our lifetime or even directly or indirectly to us personally. Part of a reconciliation is, I believe, a matter of how both communities or different communities address their individual and common histories. That is why I think something can be learnt from, for example, the South African 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission'.

It is noteworthy that the South African constitutional settlement was resolved before the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission began. Just in simple numerical terms the decades of trauma in South Africa far exceeded the experience of Cyprus - that is in terms of deaths, killings, displacements, expropriations, discrimination, expulsions, state and quasi-state violence, etc ...

Thus, in relation to Boomerang's point, it might be possible in Cyprus to also have a constitutional settlement before there is reconciliation, let alone truth.


You might be right that some want to continue with their criminal ways and therefore oppose any kind of negotiation. But I think this is a minority, and a slowly fading minority.

[boomerang]

It is noteworthy that the South African constitutional settlement was resolved before the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission began. Just in simple numerical terms the decades of trauma in South Africa far exceeded the experience of Cyprus - that is in terms of deaths, killings, displacements, expropriations, discrimination, expulsions, state and quasi-state violence, etc ...

Maybe someone should remind this to the other side...that has unachievable demands...like VETO and security quarantees...

But again the sad truth today, we are facing unification talks, and the wants of the other party are still the same as they were in the past...

So in order to move forward, what exactly are the tcs bringing to the table in order to achieve unification...

[Piratis]

Piratis,
I agree broadly with the sentiment regarding democracy and human rights. No problem there. I'm not convinced about leaving history behind though.

To continue the buying and selling metaphor, history is not like a bad purchase, a second hand car that you discover has got a knackered gearbox. To my mind the issue is how we deal with our history. One thing is for sure, and that is that it cannot be ignored or simply discounted. So I'm not advocating just forgetting about the traumas of the past, almost all of which have happened within our lifetime or even directly or indirectly to us personally. Part of a reconciliation is, I believe, a matter of how both communities or different communities address their individual and common histories. That is why I think something can be learnt from, for example, the South African 'Truth and Reconciliation Commission'.

It is noteworthy that the South African constitutional settlement was resolved before the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission began. Just in simple numerical terms the decades of trauma in South Africa far exceeded the experience of Cyprus - that is in terms of deaths, killings, displacements, expropriations, discrimination, expulsions, state and quasi-state violence, etc ...

Thus, in relation to Boomerang's point, it might be possible in Cyprus to also have a constitutional settlement before there is reconciliation, let alone truth.


You might be right that some want to continue with their criminal ways and therefore oppose any kind of negotiation. But I think this is a minority, and a slowly fading minority.

I agree with what you say, except from the last part.

The reason a solution is not found is exactly because some try to use their own distorted version of the past as an excuse to continue with crimes, human rights violations, racist discriminations and segregation. In fact some want to introduce a system similar to the Apartheid of South Africa to Cyprus and call that a "solution".