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Shooters/Hunters; Will this be you?

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Postby Oracle » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:16 am

CopperLine wrote:Sure, Nikitas, some people are puritans and the motive for banning what others find pleasurable is some daft religion-derived dogma.

But the motive for banning guns might just be that people with guns kill. And some people don't like the idea let alone the actuality of being killed. Nothing puritanical about that motive.

I'm happy to accept that some gun owners/users are responsible. That they're safety conscious and considerate in their use of sporting guns. (I can't however see any argument for the ownership/use of non-sport firearms). But there are many who do not act responsibly; and I insist that I as an individual and society in general is protected from those people (just as I expect some protection from people who recklessly use other machines that can kill, such as cars).

And sporting guns and field sports. I'd go along with the idea that you only shoot what you can eat. Don't shoot what you can't/won't eat. But I also think that birds and other wildlife need protection and there is something pretty suspicious when hunters claim to know what's best for the hunted, said the fox to the chicken.


What sensible, prudent sentiments!
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Postby cyprusgrump » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:00 am

CopperLine wrote:But the motive for banning guns might just be that people with guns kill. And some people don't like the idea let alone the actuality of being killed. Nothing puritanical about that motive.

[sarcasm] Well banning the public from owning guns has certainly solved the gun-crime problem in the UK… [/sarcasm] :roll:
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Postby Oracle » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:02 am

Nikitas wrote:Biology is based on the simple fact that the hunter does indeed know what is best for the quarry.

It might sound unlikely in the situation where the hunter is human, but that is exactly what an Arizona Wildlife Service Biological survey determined. As game becomes scarce hunter interest wanes, the game recovers and hunter interest picks up.


Nikitas there are many cases of hunting to extinction even from pre-history such as the Woolly Mammoth which was forced to go extinct from loss of habitat due to changes in temperature (a problem again today), while human hunters acted as the final straw.

Flightless birds are obviously vulnerable to extinction. Such as these 3:

1. The Flightless Duck: Prehistoric coastal peoples in California hunted it for 8,000 years before it finally went extinct, about 2,400 years ago.

2. The Dodo : Driven to extinction by European sailors on the shores of Mauritius in the early 16th century

3. The Great Auk of the North Atlantic: A flightless seabird, with the last pair killed on an island off the coast of Iceland in 1844.

Also, even birds of flight have been hunted to extinction, e.g. the Passenger Pigeon which was so numerous it took three days for them to fly over. Easy marks! They were hunted mostly for food and sport and the last one was shot in 1900 by a 14-year-old boy.

And even mammals such as the Sea Cow, which was big, slow, tasty, and defenseless (a bad combination around hungry humans), and became just a record by 1768.

I think maybe even the Capercalie in Scotland, before its re-introduction.
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Postby miltiades » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:16 am

Well I'm pleased that Cyprus isn't the exclusive home of most of the worlds birds , the chances are all would have been extinct by now !!
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Postby Oracle » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:06 am

miltiades wrote:Well I'm pleased that Cyprus isn't the exclusive home of most of the worlds birds , the chances are all would have been extinct by now !!



Miltiades, that's a pretty dumb thing to say! I haven't seen any reports that Cypriots have been directly or exclusively responsible for any extinctions.

Although a few species are under threat such as the general decline of the Mediterranean monk seal:
http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/the ... monk_seal/

The main specific extinction in Cyprus is from several thousand years ago, the Dwarf Hippo:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... dwarf.html

The biggest present worry (from hunters) are the Feral Donkeys of the Karpas:
http://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... onmentNews

.... so the quicker we sort the Cyprus Problem out the more likely we would be able to help prevent what could become another real tragedy of the 1974 Turkish Invasion!.
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Postby miltiades » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:38 am

Oracle wrote:
miltiades wrote:Well I'm pleased that Cyprus isn't the exclusive home of most of the worlds birds , the chances are all would have been extinct by now !!



Miltiades, that's a pretty dumb thing to say! I haven't seen any reports that Cypriots have been directly or exclusively responsible for any extinctions.

Although a few species are under threat such as the general decline of the Mediterranean monk seal:
http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/the ... monk_seal/

The main specific extinction in Cyprus is from several thousand years ago, the Dwarf Hippo:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... dwarf.html

The biggest present worry (from hunters) are the Feral Donkeys of the Karpas:
http://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... onmentNews

.... so the quicker we sort the Cyprus Problem out the more likely we would be able to help prevent what could become another real tragedy of the 1974 Turkish Invasion!.

With due respect Scientist , to be responsible for causing the permanent extinction of a specie that specie would have to be in totality in Cyprus. No bird species are exclusive to Cyprus and I reiterate that should a bird species habitat had been exclusively Cyprus that specie would today be extinct.
Our people, not all but many , unfortunately do not see birds as the wonderfull creatures they are but as a target practice !!
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Postby Jerry » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:46 am

Nikitas wrote:Jerry, you multiply 15 by 365 and that gives over 5000 children shot annually which is obviously a FALSE figure and one you must have fished out from some antigun site. It is not borne out by the FBI statistics on all gunshot related deaths in the USA and it is LIE!

The USA as a whole has about 10 000 gunshot related deaths annually, half of those simply cannot be children.

Either correct your post or accept you are deliberately LYING.

As for outlawing guns, just visit the National Struggle Museum in Nicosia and look at the home made sumbmachine guns made with technology available in Cyprus in the 50s. Guns are the product of 19th century mechanical technology, and you can find all the info you need to make a gun in any 5th grade physics book and the Encylopedia Britannica. Therefore you cannot outlaw guns unless you ban these books first. Is that what you want to do?










Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States, 1962-1994
Violence Surveillance Summary Series, No. 3

Executive Summary
Death due to injuries from firearms is an increasingly important public health problem. As a group, injuries from firearms were the ninth leading cause of death overall in 1994 and the fourth leading cause of years of potential life lost before age 65 (NCIPC, unpublished data). During the 33-year period covered by this report, the total number of firearm deaths increased by 130%, from 16,720 in 1962 to 38,505 in 1994. If present trends continue, firearm-related injuries could become the leading cause of deaths attributed to injury by the year 2003, surpassing injuries due to motor vehicle crashes.

This report reviews the descriptive epidemiology of firearm-related mortality in the United States from 1962-1994. The patterns of overall firearm-related mortality and of homicide, suicide, unintentional death, deaths occurring during legal intervention, and deaths of undetermined intent are examined by race, sex, and age group.

Throughout the 33-year period, suicide and homicide were responsible for most firearm fatalities; they accounted for 94% of the total in 1994. The fluctuations and overall increase in rates of total firearm-related mortality most closely resembled the pattern of firearm-related homicide. Although suicide rates were high and gradually increasing over time, they varied less than homicide rates. The rates for unintentional death from firearms, deaths during legal intervention, and deaths of undetermined intent were low and generally declined over the study period.

Firearm-related mortality affects all demographic groups, but the greatest increases in recent years were among teens 15-19 years of age, young adults aged 20-24, and older adults aged 75 and older. The rates of overall firearm-related mortality for young people aged 15-24 were higher from 1990-1994 than at any other time during the 33-year period. For those 15-19, increases in firearm-related homicide, suicide, and unintentional injury deaths were especially great. The increase in firearm-related homicide in this age group occurred among all race-sex groups. For America's elderly, rates of suicide by firearm were particularly high, and increases occurred in all race-sex groups except black females, for whom the number of suicides were too small to produce stable rates. The surveillance data in this report are intended to familiarize public health practitioners, researchers, and policymakers with the problem of firearm-related deaths in this country. While these data help characterize the magnitude of the problem and identify groups at risk, there are still gaps in our knowledge. Current surveillance efforts need to be expanded to include information about nonfatal injuries. We also need a greater understanding of the causes of firearm deaths to identify modifiable individual and societal risk factors. Finally, further research is required to plan, develop, and evaluate prevention strategies.



Contact
Information

National Center for Injury Prevention and Control
Mailstop K65
4770 Buford Highway NE
Atlanta, GA 30341-3724

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10,000 deaths a year Nikitas?

I'll dig out some more recent "lies" if you like
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Postby Oracle » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:51 am

miltiades wrote:
Oracle wrote:
miltiades wrote:Well I'm pleased that Cyprus isn't the exclusive home of most of the worlds birds , the chances are all would have been extinct by now !!



Miltiades, that's a pretty dumb thing to say! I haven't seen any reports that Cypriots have been directly or exclusively responsible for any extinctions.

Although a few species are under threat such as the general decline of the Mediterranean monk seal:
http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/the ... monk_seal/

The main specific extinction in Cyprus is from several thousand years ago, the Dwarf Hippo:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... dwarf.html

The biggest present worry (from hunters) are the Feral Donkeys of the Karpas:
http://www.reuters.com/article/environm ... onmentNews

.... so the quicker we sort the Cyprus Problem out the more likely we would be able to help prevent what could become another real tragedy of the 1974 Turkish Invasion!.

With due respect Scientist , to be responsible for causing the permanent extinction of a specie that specie would have to be in totality in Cyprus. No bird species are exclusive to Cyprus and I reiterate that should a bird species habitat had been exclusively Cyprus that specie would today be extinct.
Our people, not all but many , unfortunately do not see birds as the wonderfull creatures they are but as a target practice !!


So you are happy to condemn them on a supposition ... :roll: convenient that they would never be able to prove themselves able to respond to such a threat of extinction by doing the right thing as they have a tendency to do when push comes to shove. (And I have personal experience from the great work the Fisheries Dept. are trying to do!)

Which is why it is an unfortunate accusation to make ... and dumb!
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Postby Jerry » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:55 am

cyprusgrump wrote:
CopperLine wrote:But the motive for banning guns might just be that people with guns kill. And some people don't like the idea let alone the actuality of being killed. Nothing puritanical about that motive.

[sarcasm] Well banning the public from owning guns has certainly solved the gun-crime problem in the UK… [/sarcasm] :roll:


Difficult to prove Grump but my guess is it would be much worse if hand guns hadn't been banned, the fact that criminals are reduced to converting replica guns partly bears this out. It has also been claimed that a lot of weapons came to this country after collapse of Soviet bloc.
Quite frankly if the price we have to pay for banning handguns is the prevention of one Dunblane massacre then I think it's worth it
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Postby miltiades » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:07 am

Oracle wrote :
"""""So you are happy to condemn them on a supposition ... convenient that they would never be able to prove themselves able to respond to such a threat of extinction by doing the right thing as they have a tendency to do when push comes to shove. (And I have personal experience from the great work the Fisheries Dept. are trying to do!)

Which is why it is an unfortunate accusation to make ... and WISE !!! ""

Well thank you madam Scientist , it seems to be that you know a lot less about Cypriots that you infer.
Bird killing is as old as Cyprus itself. Efforts are continually being made to eradicate these archaic and irresponsible practices of shooting anything that flies , including some that do not such as stray cats .
We do not have a history of being caring towards birds , we raid their nests , we await for birds on migratory routes ready to shoot them down. I grew up in Cyprus remember , I know its a long time ago and happily such practices are not the norm but they do happen now.
ps.Many thanks for the compliment !! Its a joke and I take it back , the word you used was DUMP !!!
I WILL GET YOU FOR THAT !!!
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