Cyprus-Forum.com

[umit07]

Umit

Well Andreas ( I hope it's ok I call you with your name ) , when we talk about peace on the island and "unification" it ain't reunification with the current RoC !!!! This is something that GC's don't seem to understand, we have been isolated from the RoC since 64" and have NO intension of going back to it no matter what. Anything new deal will mean "a new slate" , in which WE govern the island together in which there are no borders like now and everyone can go live wherever they like . We haven't been seperated for 44 year for nothing.

Umit I have no problem with you calling me by name. It is my name after all and I am happy to stand by with what i say on this forum and anywhere else for that matter.

econdly I think you under estimate GC and their willingness unify their country and live with TC's. We are all very understanding that the RoC as such will cease to exist and a new nation will be built. So long as you (and I use the term to describe TC community in the occupied areas) are pushing for your own state (though I do not get the concept but accept it for the sake of unifying the Island) I fail to see equality. I urge you to think about this concept of equality do some research perhaps even go sit in phylosophy class at the university if lecture theatres are open to any one just like here.

The second issue that concerns me about Cyprus is this notion of minority vs majority. Like Miltiades said unless the RoC kills off half its citizens to make the numerical numbers even we will forever be stuck as a nation no matter what form it takes.

For me political equality means one person one vote any Cypriot who wants and has aspisrations to ru the country to have the right to do so. I have said it before and I will say it again. I support communist ideology as written by Marx not the bastardised version of the former USSR. Therefore if a TC had a party that promoted that notion I would vote them as opposed to GC whose political ideology I disagree with.

Your comments above appear honourable to me, however I think Talat and Turkey have other things in mind. Talat has not yet annunced that as a good will gesture he will stop promoting an independent trnc, he has not taken the initiative to move toward educating his people about a united Cyprus, he still has not taken down the sign at the crossing promoting the trkish republic of Cyprus.

Mind you the RoC government has a long way to go also. For example I would have thought Mr Christofias would have pushed for Cyprus anthem even if its temporary till we create one together as a new nation, noe has he spoken to Greece about no Greek flags to be flown on Cyprus as a step to unification.

The thing about Talat "promoting the TRNC" , firstly Talat is occupying the title of "The President of the TRNC" how can a guy NOT promote his position? If he didn't want to promote it , he wouldn't have run for presidency. I for one see that the TRNC is not the way foward since the only country behind it is Turkey! and even Turkey now is very keen to end the dispute in Cyprus. One thing that Denktash accuses Talat of is NOT promoting the TRNC enough because Talat has never talks about seeking more recognition . Democracy Andreas does not have a fixed definiton in sense of governence. Just look at how countries like Canada, Belgium and Switzerland are run. I for one only see communism working in Israel, it never worked anywhere else even china ain't really communist. If you asked me a very good example of governence is Australia , but then again the tax limits are quite high for my liking.

[umit07]

The man of reason speaks once again. Good on you Bananiot.

Start using your head...

If I were to give you a loaf of bread to share among 10 starving people on a deserted island, but decide that you and your friend should eat 50% of it while the remaining 8 have to share the other half, you'd be VERY STUPID to accept it because even though you’d sleep on a full stomach… chances are that you and your friend won't be alive in the morning.

We ain't talking about sharing money or food GR.

[Get Real!]

The man of reason speaks once again. Good on you Bananiot.

Start using your head...

If I were to give you a loaf of bread to share among 10 starving people on a deserted island, but decide that you and your friend should eat 50% of it while the remaining 8 have to share the other half, you'd be VERY STUPID to accept it because even though you’d sleep on a full stomach… chances are that you and your friend won't be alive in the morning.

We ain't talking about sharing money or food GR.

The moral of the example I whipped up for you is INJUSTICE which leads to anger and negative reactions.

[Kifeas]

So, their father is Kemal Ataturk but our fathers are our biological fathers, according to Kifeas. Typical of the man who has finally made up his mind that Rauf Denktash was right all along in wanting partition as the best solution for Cyprus. Is 20% okay with you Kifeas? Perhaps we should draw the (red) line at 19.75%?

Bananiot, I assure you that once you discover what I have discovered, namely that all the Turks and the TCs (the majority of them) have been brought up by their leaders to want, is to have both “the bread loaf complete, and the dog satiated,” or as we say in English “what is mine is mine and what is yours is mine too;” you will also develop the same attitude like me as to what kind of a solution we should be pursuing! I am sure soon you will also see what the majority of the GCs have already realized!

[denizaksulu]

Umit

Well Andreas ( I hope it's ok I call you with your name ) , when we talk about peace on the island and "unification" it ain't reunification with the current RoC !!!! This is something that GC's don't seem to understand, we have been isolated from the RoC since 64" and have NO intension of going back to it no matter what. Anything new deal will mean "a new slate" , in which WE govern the island together in which there are no borders like now and everyone can go live wherever they like . We haven't been seperated for 44 year for nothing.

Umit I have no problem with you calling me by name. It is my name after all and I am happy to stand by with what i say on this forum and anywhere else for that matter.

econdly I think you under estimate GC and their willingness unify their country and live with TC's. We are all very understanding that the RoC as such will cease to exist and a new nation will be built. So long as you (and I use the term to describe TC community in the occupied areas) are pushing for your own state (though I do not get the concept but accept it for the sake of unifying the Island) I fail to see equality. I urge you to think about this concept of equality do some research perhaps even go sit in phylosophy class at the university if lecture theatres are open to any one just like here.

The second issue that concerns me about Cyprus is this notion of minority vs majority. Like Miltiades said unless the RoC kills off half its citizens to make the numerical numbers even we will forever be stuck as a nation no matter what form it takes.

For me political equality means one person one vote any Cypriot who wants and has aspisrations to ru the country to have the right to do so. I have said it before and I will say it again. I support communist ideology as written by Marx not the bastardised version of the former USSR. Therefore if a TC had a party that promoted that notion I would vote them as opposed to GC whose political ideology I disagree with.

Your comments above appear honourable to me, however I think Talat and Turkey have other things in mind. Talat has not yet annunced that as a good will gesture he will stop promoting an independent trnc, he has not taken the initiative to move toward educating his people about a united Cyprus, he still has not taken down the sign at the crossing promoting the trkish republic of Cyprus.

Mind you the RoC government has a long way to go also. For example I would have thought Mr Christofias would have pushed for Cyprus anthem even if its temporary till we create one together as a new nation, noe has he spoken to Greece about no Greek flags to be flown on Cyprus as a step to unification.

The thing about Talat "promoting the TRNC" , firstly Talat is occupying the title of "The President of the TRNC" how can a guy NOT promote his position? If he didn't want to promote it , he wouldn't have run for presidency. I for one see that the TRNC is not the way foward since the only country behind it is Turkey! and even Turkey now is very keen to end the dispute in Cyprus. One thing that Denktash accuses Talat of is NOT promoting the TRNC enough because Talat has never talks about seeking more recognition . Democracy Andreas does not have a fixed definiton in sense of governence. Just look at how countries like Canada, Belgium and Switzerland are run. I for one only see communism working in Israel, it never worked anywhere else even china ain't really communist. If you asked me a very good example of governence is Australia , but then again the tax limits are quite high for my liking.

Just like Gorbachev. He dissolved the CCCP/USSR and found himself the Prime minister of Zero.

[Kifeas]

The man of reason speaks once again. Good on you Bananiot.

Start using your head...

If I were to give you a loaf of bread to share among 10 starving people on a deserted island, but decide that you and your friend should eat 50% of it while the remaining 8 have to share the other half, you'd be VERY STUPID to accept it because even though you’d sleep on a full stomach… chances are that you and your friend won't be alive in the morning.

We ain't talking about sharing money or food GR.

No umit, we aren't talking about sharing food, but think about this! When it comes to contributing human and economic resources and taxes to make the country run, you want the GCs to be contributing the 80% - perhaps even the 90% of them; but when it comes to deciding how to spend or utilize them, you want them to have only the 50% of the saying!

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Cyprus has been a Greek island for 1000s of years, just like every other Greek island. Nobody asked from you to leave from Cyprus. We simply asked for our freedom, whats wrong with that?

Could you provide us with the exact dates of when the island was "GREEK", the island has been conquered so many times the ethnic fabric of the people is very mixed and claiming it was Greek or Turkish is irrelevent in 2008, the important issue is who are the indigenous people and how they shoudl run their own country. Imho both GCs and TCs are indigenous and therefore have just as much rights as each other. How we choose to build a structure where both communities are not disregarded in the decision making process and where we cannot agree and why we will be divided for many many years to come.

The great majority of the people of Cyprus speak Greek and have a Greek culture for 3500 years. This is somehting that can be said for very very few other places in the world. In fact Cyprus is way more Greek than Turkey is Turkish.

And I ask you again: Should no Greek island or territory be liberated and part of a free Greek state because the Ottomans spread some minorities of their kind on our lands?

If the minorities are of a considerable size then they have to be taken into account prior to enosis and not brushed to one side or anniahalated, as experienced in Cyprus, Crete and other now Greek islands.

Based on that argument no part of Greece should have been liberated to form an independent Greek state. A minority can have minority rights, and each of the citizens of the minority can have his human and democratic rights like every other citizen. But a minority can not force its own will in an undemocratic way.

Also stop lying about "annihilation" of TCs. In Cyprus the only ahinilation that we experienced was that of Greek Cypriots from the north part of Cyprus. In recent decades there was no other annihilation. The one before it was again commited by the Turks against the Cypriots. "Annihilation of TCs" is something that never happened and it is nothing more than Turkish propaganda produced to excuse the real annihilation of Cypriots from half of their homeland.

Was it fine when Cyprus was part of the British and Ottoman empires against the will of the Cypriots, but it was a "crime" if Cyprus was part of the free Greek state which is what the great majority of Cypriots wanted?

The island has been conquered time and time again and the effect of this meant that you were no longer alone in the decision making process you had to take into account all the population not just those that wanted to take a decision that would put part of the population at risk, you can disregard this as you will have civil unrest as we saw on our own island that lead to division. You are still suffering from withdrawal symptoms in understanding that if you did not have this desire to turn this island into a Greek island we would not be divided today.

When did the foreign invadors of your kind ever let the Cypriots to take the decisions? You always impose on us your will, and everything was fine for you when you were oppressing us and killing us by the 1000s.

It is time to allow Cypriots to take the decions in democratic way, and the people of your minority can have one vote each like everybody else. That is what democracy means.

The fact is that we have done absolutely nothing wrong. We fought for our freedom like the many other territories that where under colonial (British,Ottoman,French etc) rule. We have done nothing more than fight for our rights.

This really sums up GC mentality and why there will never a solution, they believe that they have all the rights and no one else can stand up for what they believe is right or even fight for survival.

You never fought for survival. You fought to take our lands and our rights. I have shown to you clearly that had not attacked you and we had not threaten your lives or anything else, until you attacked us, and you started threating us that you will annihilate us from half of our island.

The crime of Cypriots:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

No Piratis Cyprus was never part of Greece or ever a Greek island, you are deluding yourself, the island has been bastardized enough times to honestly claim that the remenents which are us the Cypriots have the same DNA but choose to seperate ourselves and call ourselves either Turkish or Greek before Cypriot, there are ofcourse people who truely believe they are just Cypriots. So as soon as you get of your high horse in claiming that Cyprus is more yours than mine the sooner we will see each other as equals not as as individuals but also as communities, this will help build a stronger balance and understanding between the 2 communities until a time comes where they wish to one and known just as Cypriots.

We fought against all the odds to survive against you enosis dream, your ignoring this fact makes you less a person in my eyes. The fear displayed by the older TC generation has to be experienced to understand that their concerns were bery real back in our dark history, maybe you need to speak to some of these people to wipe away your warped perception that we did nto suffer and that the numbers game you play will wash away guilt.

[Viewpoint]

The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos Sampson on Feb. 26,1981 in which he said, “Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed enosis, I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus.”

I don't give a TOSS, and neither does any court of law in the world, about who SAID what but it's who DID what that matters!

Again, recommended further reading for you...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11349

So we should dismiss the intent? You are living in denial.

If I were to drown you in malicious quotes made over the years by characters like Ataturk, Demirel, Chiler, Etcevit, and Denktash, would that give me the right to condemn YOU today?

There is only ONE thing that matters and that is FACTUAL EVENTS OF ACTION and not people's thoughts, nostalgias, assumptions, and similar virtual crap!

The question is not whether GR is “in denial” but whether YOU are MATURE ENOUGH to start looking at the Cyprus problem from a FACTUAL viewpoint as opposed to your emotional rollercoaster of misinformation.

The information is from a Greek newspaper and the quote is from Nicos Sampson. I do not condemn you, one day I wish to be living next to you in peace. I just wish you were a little more honest with me and yourself.

Why do you connect me to Turkey? I'm a Cypriot. I have no relatives or any contacts in Turkey.

What worries me is the fact that there are many more Nicos Sampsons in Cyprus today. We exchange posts with some of them on this very forum. We all know who they are.

Since you believe that whatever the “oddment” of the Ottoman empire did in 1974 and thereafter, is legitimate, and since you believe that there are many Sampsons among the GCs, and since I gather that this is the view shared by the majority of the TCs due to the relentless brainwashing of your "national fathers;" I see no point in discussing any form of re-unification with us, and I wonder why your leadership does nowadays! The only solution I see forward is to allow you your separate TC state in the 18%(-) of Cyprus, as soon as you and your "motherland" will make up your mind as to which 18% area you will retain, from the excessive part of Cyprus that the “oddment” of the Ottoman empire illegally occupies since 1974! Until then, you will remain isolated, and your "motherland" will soon get the boot from her EU accession process!

Well gunaydin (good morning) Kifeas I have been supporting this position since the referendum when I realized that the chasm was to wide to bridge and that any future attempts would also fail miserablly. The only real solution that people have been starting to realize is agreed partition, both states go their own way, thank you for starting to see the light and supporting me and others like me.

[humanist]

I think you have missed my point on communism. I said I support communism as written the Manifesto. The former USSR or Chins know the meaning so lets not confuse the issues here.

As far as what Talat is doing well that is questionable, he takes a step forward 100 backward. he needs to state what he wants and where he is heading. Once again I am not sure how free he is to do so. With the Turkish army on his back door.

Perhaps then it is up to each and y individual TC to take action, demeand their properties back from the RoC and return to their respective villages and homes thus being able to participate and share the opportunties the RoC has to offer till such time a solution is found for a new nation Island Cyprus.

[Kifeas]

Okay VP, but I haven't seen yet the map showing which 18% (-) of the island you will retain, and my suspicion is that you aim to grab more than that! In such a case, my advice to you is that you will end up losing even that little 18% that your fair share dictates, due to your natural upbringing greediness! I am sure you know the saying: "whoever wants the too much, in the end loses even the very little!"