I wasn't really referring to you, but to respond to your comment, you can't expect my tone to be all roses and daffodils when people are so ignorant, biased, and brainwashed.
When people say "GCs rejected the Annan plan = they don't want peace" then that's a bucketload of bull, which need the appropriate tone. Whether I can carry out a constructive conversation or not, can only be seen be actually starting one i.e. by replying to my points.
If however you feel you don't want to have that discussion, fair enough. It's a "free" world out there (do you see the irony of that statement? not to you, in general).
And yes I do feel I have to specify this isn't something personal, it's something against the overall mentality of brainwashing and bias.
‘We can’t discuss Cyprus over coffee’
by Saint Jimmy » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:10 pm
Firstly, apologies for forgetting to welcome you to the forum. Welcome aboard!
I believe I can... There is a 'rule' in the forum rules posted by the administrator, which reads 'please take the time to ask yourself one simple question before you post something: is what I'm about to post going to contribute to constructive dialogue?'. I have tried to follow that 'rule', and I believe that if we all do it, recent weeks' phenomena will be over.
Well, some GCs do not want re-unification. I've heard admissions to that effect during the build-up to the referendum. You can say they are idiots, bigots, or whatever, but the truth of the matter is that they are out there. Obviously, not all people who voted 'No' did so for the same reasons, but simply acknowledging this is an argument that contradicts what you say, i.e., that GCs did vote NO, but they still want reunification. In my opinion, as much of a fallacious generalisation 'GCs don't want a solution because they voted NO' is, so is 'all GCs want reunification'.
This is true. But I was referring to myself, i.e., my own ability to refrain from resorting to the same tone you used. See, this post of yours is much better in that respect, and thanks for understanding what I meant and adjusting to your audience.
Actually, I don't see the irony... Please elaborate on what you mean...
Fair enough.
ultrastar wrote:I wasn't really referring to you, but to respond to your comment, you can't expect my tone to be all roses and daffodils when people are so ignorant, biased, and brainwashed.
I believe I can... There is a 'rule' in the forum rules posted by the administrator, which reads 'please take the time to ask yourself one simple question before you post something: is what I'm about to post going to contribute to constructive dialogue?'. I have tried to follow that 'rule', and I believe that if we all do it, recent weeks' phenomena will be over.
ultrastar wrote:When people say "GCs rejected the Annan plan = they don't want peace" then that's a bucketload of bull, which need the appropriate tone.
Well, some GCs do not want re-unification. I've heard admissions to that effect during the build-up to the referendum. You can say they are idiots, bigots, or whatever, but the truth of the matter is that they are out there. Obviously, not all people who voted 'No' did so for the same reasons, but simply acknowledging this is an argument that contradicts what you say, i.e., that GCs did vote NO, but they still want reunification. In my opinion, as much of a fallacious generalisation 'GCs don't want a solution because they voted NO' is, so is 'all GCs want reunification'.
ultrastar wrote:Whether I can carry out a constructive conversation or not, can only be seen be actually starting one i.e. by replying to my points.
This is true. But I was referring to myself, i.e., my own ability to refrain from resorting to the same tone you used. See, this post of yours is much better in that respect, and thanks for understanding what I meant and adjusting to your audience.
ultrastar wrote:If however you feel you don't want to have that discussion, fair enough. It's a "free" world out there (do you see the irony of that statement? not to you, in general).
Actually, I don't see the irony... Please elaborate on what you mean...
ultrastar wrote:And yes I do feel I have to specify this isn't something personal, it's something against the overall mentality of brainwashing and bias.
Fair enough.
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by ultrastar » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:39 pm
Saint Jimmy wrote:Firstly, apologies for forgetting to welcome you to the forum. Welcome aboard!
No worries, thanks for having me in.
Regarding the rest of your latest comments:
Constructive dialogue: yes I agree also, dialogues have to be constructive otherwise why bother? Ideally at relaxed tones, but let me repeat here that this is a sensitive matter to many people (including myself) and I feel I have the right to be slightly (or a lot, if you like) aggressive when it comes to comments from people that just seem to be blunt and turn their back on truth. Anyway to cut a long story short, each one of us has their own way for making their voice heard. You are among the more relaxed people, that's all fine, not all people can maintain that amount of control when posting things. I'm not in favour of flaming, but I am in favour of freedom of speech and letting people express their ideas in their natural way. In my case, this might be that heavier, tiring, aggressive, call-it-what-you-want-way.
Anyway that's not the point of the discussion, just my rather long "intro" explaining that I don't get personal about it, and so shouldn't anyone else.
I agree with you, "no GCs" or "all GCs" want reunification are just as inaccurate. I did not, of course, say that all GCs want that. So let me say here: negating "GCs don't want reunification" does not equal "all GCs do". It just means "not all don't". Well anyway, I see your point and I'm pretty sure you see mine. I can be certain that MOST GCs want to see their country reunited, they want to go back to their homes and schools and businesses and farms and their peaceful lives. Saying NO means, for the majority of those who did vote NO at least, essentially, saying no to THIS particular solution, and not to re-unification. And it's sad for people to say what I mentioned before (for which you don't agree of course) NO = GCs (i.e. majority of?) don't want reunification.
So let me get that message out again, for those who claim that. GCs, referring to the majority of us (yes I am a Greek Cypriot), DO want to see their island reunited. In fact, they want to see it done the true way, no federal states and crap like that, but rather one island two communities. Unfortunately this can't be easily achieved; and an Annan-style solution seems to be more realistic (assurances, security, etc). STILL, GCs, even though they disagree with this "official division" of the island, are willing to have it so rather than not solve the problem at all. So I think, that being a huge compromise (for the GCs at least), they/we are willing to go through all that trouble.
Yes we do want reunification, ideally not in states but as a single country of 2 "communities", and yes even this is not possible we'll go for it, but NO we won't accept a solution that CLEARLY undermines our values and authority and insults our IQ in the most obvious way.
YES to a just solution for both sides, NO to a ridiculous solultion for either side.
and thanks for understanding what I meant and adjusting to your audience.
If that makes people happier then I'm glad to do so; you are welcome
ultrastar wrote:If however you feel you don't want to have that discussion, fair enough. It's a "free" world out there (do you see the irony of that statement? not to you, in general).
Actually, I don't see the irony... Please elaborate on what you mean...
What I meant here as irony is my reference to a "free world", when in fact the topic of discussion here is about division, invasion, military oppression, etc. We're all in a free world, discussing the effects of war and breakaway "states" etc.
What a wonderful world we all live in...
-U
P.S: Long and tiring reply, sorry
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by MicAtCyp » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:43 pm
For Bananiot the Greatest:
1. Forty five years on, Papadopoulos admitted in a speech at Intercollege two months ago that the London Zurich agreements were a blessing in disguise. Mea culpa albeit delayed.
What he actually said was that compared with the Anan Plan or the situation of today, the 1960 agreements were a blessing.Do NOT distort!
2. It is just an allegation that Papadopoulos was the vice leader of the infamous Akritas Plan! Well done, you are very objective indeed.
I repeat: It is alledged he is one of the writters together with Clerides and Yiorkatzis under the order of Makarios. Vice president??? Who elected him???
3. The fact that many people have called him a Turk hater is of no significance to you. You are sure that he isn’t, may be you caught him in bed with a Turk.
I repeat: so what? Many people in here call you a traitor. Does that mean you ARE a traitor?
4. Read Niazi Kizilurek’s new book. There you will find the original document.
Oh really? I imply to you the wording was an honest/impartial assesment of the situation and NOT A THREAT.
5. Rumours, what rumours? Go to the PIO and obtain some copies of his newspaper "Kirikas". There you will find the exact number of Ativan tablets the late Kyprianou took on a daily basis, according to your protege.
So you expected him to call Kyprianou a drug addict in his funeral or what? He was really a drug addict wasn’t he?
6. That is a new line of approach. Previous;y you flatly denied that Papadopoulos said "partition is the next best solution" in Helsinki. This is an improvement, I must admit.
I quoted what he actually said. Obviously is much better than your distortion
7. Klerides and Vasiliou put Cyprus in the EU, so you could at least show some respect.
He,he,he. Go tell that to the agriculturists, the farmers, the wine producers and all the people who now face starvation.So in your opinion we should ON TOP respect them for selling us for nothing?
8. I still say we need as many friends as we can get. It’s so cocky to say that we do not need such friends.
What we need is REAL friends.If you want to be friend with SNAKES go be by yourself
9. He is not respected; remember Chirac’s "Papa qui"?
What an absolute proof!!! I told you DO NOT distort. That statement was in relation to how much significance the big boys in Europe aknowledge to Cyprus as a small country, and not for Papadopoulos as a person.
10. So he does not accept the A plan! Did he not say that it is accepted as a basis for negotiations? Or should we believe his generals in his party who openly say we should move away from the dreaded plan? Reveal his cards? But, he said that those that need to know, know!
Politically immature people like you will try to draw conclussions directly from statements. You will always lose. You have to be able to see further away from your nose.
11. The prerequisites are there to stall the talks. It is a classic example of GC policy. It has been tried so many times before.
So in your opinion the talks must finish in one month, and we should accept whatever a paid off arbitrator says, and then put the result (to which not even our leaders agree) in a referendum and reject it once more.May I ask why?
12. Yiannakis Nikolaou, Pomilorides etc, do you need more proof?
Yes I need the proof the he hand picks the journalists to interview him.As far as I remember he was interviewd by 4 journalists. Do you have one or do you not?
13. He called the people that voted "no" nenekides, meaning traitors.
Who voted "no"?? Are you totally confused again? He called those FANATICS among the yes voters who still insist we should act AGAINST the will of the majority (like for example your goodself) NAI-NAI-KIDES meaning YES-YES-ERS. If you happened to discover a 200 year old traitor whom 99.99% of the people never heard of, whose name was nenekis (written with epsilon and not with alpha-iota) to get offended that is your problem
14. So, you adopt the ridiculous accusations. Those you call salesmen must be nenekides, ie traitors
It is not Papadopoulos who declared them a war.It is they who declared a war against him for not selling his country at the price the previous salesmen have agreed.Well those bad employees are now at home cooking fasulya.Go visit them and eat some with them, and then come back here to FART us some more
15. During the EOKA era, using the pseudo name Defkalion, he authorised the murder of many leftists who were charged, surprise surprise of being traitors and paid agents.
Teacher, do you mean pseudonym (nom de guerre)? Rumours, hypotheses,conspiracy theories, blah,blah. Prove it. I am really tired of repeating it to you.
Hayde oglum, yildizlari say./Ante agori mou metra t’ asteria/Come on boy count the stars
Waiting your reply after you eat your fasulya.
1. Forty five years on, Papadopoulos admitted in a speech at Intercollege two months ago that the London Zurich agreements were a blessing in disguise. Mea culpa albeit delayed.
What he actually said was that compared with the Anan Plan or the situation of today, the 1960 agreements were a blessing.Do NOT distort!
2. It is just an allegation that Papadopoulos was the vice leader of the infamous Akritas Plan! Well done, you are very objective indeed.
I repeat: It is alledged he is one of the writters together with Clerides and Yiorkatzis under the order of Makarios. Vice president??? Who elected him???
3. The fact that many people have called him a Turk hater is of no significance to you. You are sure that he isn’t, may be you caught him in bed with a Turk.
I repeat: so what? Many people in here call you a traitor. Does that mean you ARE a traitor?
4. Read Niazi Kizilurek’s new book. There you will find the original document.
Oh really? I imply to you the wording was an honest/impartial assesment of the situation and NOT A THREAT.
5. Rumours, what rumours? Go to the PIO and obtain some copies of his newspaper "Kirikas". There you will find the exact number of Ativan tablets the late Kyprianou took on a daily basis, according to your protege.
So you expected him to call Kyprianou a drug addict in his funeral or what? He was really a drug addict wasn’t he?
6. That is a new line of approach. Previous;y you flatly denied that Papadopoulos said "partition is the next best solution" in Helsinki. This is an improvement, I must admit.
I quoted what he actually said. Obviously is much better than your distortion
7. Klerides and Vasiliou put Cyprus in the EU, so you could at least show some respect.
He,he,he. Go tell that to the agriculturists, the farmers, the wine producers and all the people who now face starvation.So in your opinion we should ON TOP respect them for selling us for nothing?
8. I still say we need as many friends as we can get. It’s so cocky to say that we do not need such friends.
What we need is REAL friends.If you want to be friend with SNAKES go be by yourself
9. He is not respected; remember Chirac’s "Papa qui"?
What an absolute proof!!! I told you DO NOT distort. That statement was in relation to how much significance the big boys in Europe aknowledge to Cyprus as a small country, and not for Papadopoulos as a person.
10. So he does not accept the A plan! Did he not say that it is accepted as a basis for negotiations? Or should we believe his generals in his party who openly say we should move away from the dreaded plan? Reveal his cards? But, he said that those that need to know, know!
Politically immature people like you will try to draw conclussions directly from statements. You will always lose. You have to be able to see further away from your nose.
11. The prerequisites are there to stall the talks. It is a classic example of GC policy. It has been tried so many times before.
So in your opinion the talks must finish in one month, and we should accept whatever a paid off arbitrator says, and then put the result (to which not even our leaders agree) in a referendum and reject it once more.May I ask why?
12. Yiannakis Nikolaou, Pomilorides etc, do you need more proof?
Yes I need the proof the he hand picks the journalists to interview him.As far as I remember he was interviewd by 4 journalists. Do you have one or do you not?
13. He called the people that voted "no" nenekides, meaning traitors.
Who voted "no"?? Are you totally confused again? He called those FANATICS among the yes voters who still insist we should act AGAINST the will of the majority (like for example your goodself) NAI-NAI-KIDES meaning YES-YES-ERS. If you happened to discover a 200 year old traitor whom 99.99% of the people never heard of, whose name was nenekis (written with epsilon and not with alpha-iota) to get offended that is your problem
14. So, you adopt the ridiculous accusations. Those you call salesmen must be nenekides, ie traitors
It is not Papadopoulos who declared them a war.It is they who declared a war against him for not selling his country at the price the previous salesmen have agreed.Well those bad employees are now at home cooking fasulya.Go visit them and eat some with them, and then come back here to FART us some more
15. During the EOKA era, using the pseudo name Defkalion, he authorised the murder of many leftists who were charged, surprise surprise of being traitors and paid agents.
Teacher, do you mean pseudonym (nom de guerre)? Rumours, hypotheses,conspiracy theories, blah,blah. Prove it. I am really tired of repeating it to you.
Hayde oglum, yildizlari say./Ante agori mou metra t’ asteria/Come on boy count the stars
Waiting your reply after you eat your fasulya.
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by Viewpoint » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:39 pm
ultrastar firstly welcome to the forum.
No one cares anymore about GCs NO, its old news but GCs seem to have this big chip on their shoulder and are constantly on the defensive and feel they have to provide an explanantion everytime the issue is raised. I feel you did the best thing ever by voting NO and Mr Papdop is doing a great job, I hope he keeps up the good work and continues to threaten/use the veto against Turkey, blocks everything in favour of the TC community and keeps his cards close to his chest so UN/EU do not know what he wants.
No one cares anymore about GCs NO, its old news but GCs seem to have this big chip on their shoulder and are constantly on the defensive and feel they have to provide an explanantion everytime the issue is raised. I feel you did the best thing ever by voting NO and Mr Papdop is doing a great job, I hope he keeps up the good work and continues to threaten/use the veto against Turkey, blocks everything in favour of the TC community and keeps his cards close to his chest so UN/EU do not know what he wants.
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by brother » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:45 pm
VP ease up with the reverse phycology, we come here to talk not wind others up which you seem to like doing, you seem like an intelligent person how about getting into the spirit of things and contribute to an alternative solution rather than going on about partition which is becoming so boring that its like a scratched record player.
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by Viewpoint » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:53 pm
Dear Brother,
Dont you feel things are currently going my way, Im only being honest, Mr Papadops stance only aids partition which for me appears to the only real solution,so the statements I made above ring true. From all the arguements we have on this forum and disagreements reflects exactly how far apart our viewpoints are, this attitude from both communities only backs up my arguement.
Dont you feel things are currently going my way, Im only being honest, Mr Papadops stance only aids partition which for me appears to the only real solution,so the statements I made above ring true. From all the arguements we have on this forum and disagreements reflects exactly how far apart our viewpoints are, this attitude from both communities only backs up my arguement.
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by MicAtCyp » Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:54 pm
St.Jimmy wrote: Obviously, not all people who voted 'No' did so for the same reasons, but simply acknowledging this is an argument that contradicts what you say, i.e., that GCs did vote NO, but they still want reunification. In my opinion, as much of a fallacious generalisation 'GCs don't want a solution because they voted NO' is, so is 'all GCs want reunification'.
Jimmy you know better than anyone whether the vast majority of GCs want a solution or not. So stop pretending you have doubts. Because by pretending you have, you deliberately take a neutral stance to the argument of those -who for their own reasons- want to translate our OXI to the referendum as meaning we don't want a solution.
wrote: But, as I said, your tone isn't helping
I hope you are not among those who start crying/ or piss in their pants, when someone simply raises his voice on them.
**************************************************************************************
Cannedmoose wrote: Pirati, do you actually have any real evidence that Bananiot is a paid subversive?
Pirati, I hope you don't mind me intervening. Nobody can do such a "great job" on demand or under hiring terms(= paid). What happens in reality is that such people do beleive in their "cause". They are spotted and THEN financed to be "more productive". I don't know if Bananiot has been spoted or will ever be spotted, but he surely is on top of the list. What’s astonishing in such cases, is that those people are completely unable to investigate or suspect the real reasons behind that financing. I personally met Eoka B people who were getting US Bank Drafts in 1972-74 (one of them even proudly showed his cheque to my father in my presense) who thought they were financed by the Americans for their efforts to overthrow the Communist GoatPriest! Like I said in previous posts for me Bananiot is a phenomenon! . Everything he says is based on rumours, lies, distortions of the truth, and personal opinions.All his points are weak but make tremendous first look impact! The most noticeable element of his efforts is that he concentrates specifically on Papadopoulos, and sometimes on Christofias.
I am not expecting you to openly agree with what I said Moose, however, I am absolutely sure you got my hidden message....
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by cannedmoose » Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:14 pm
I get your point MicAtCyp and I understand that this does indeed take place. But is there any proof of bananiot being involved in this? If not, I personally fail to see the link. If he is, I must get in touch as I'd be quite prepared to be a propagandist if they're willing to pay me top dollar! 
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