Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Why do you always approach the situation as war the enemy wins we loose, this reveals your true mentality with regards to solving the problem.

If the ones that want to take away our properties and our human rights are not our enemies then who is it? You want to win on our loss, and we will not let you do it.

Saint Jimmy, what we have now is bad, what they want us to accept is worst.

What we have now is hope for something better, what they want us to accept has no hope.

So what is better:

bad + hope

or

worst + no hope

????

[Saint Jimmy]

Saint Jimmy, what we have now is bad, what they want us to accept is worst.

What we have now is hope for something better, what they want us to accept has no hope.

So what is better:

bad + hope

or

worst + no hope

????

'What they want us to accept is worse' is just your personal opinion, which I don't share. But even if we agreed on that, there's always that annoying counter-argument that won't let me take sides: what we have now could be leading down the same road that the Greeks of Asia Minor took (and where are they now? What hope of return do they have?).
What they're asking us to accept (even if we agreed that it's worse than what we have now) may just take us down the right road, because (and this is my personal opinion, which you don't share, I guess) we are carrying the experience (and the lost lives and the suffering) of the last 42 years on our backs. Do you really believe that, even with a bad solution, the two communities will find themselves in an adversarial position again? I don't. And then, once we've become convinced that we're not after our own hidden agenda (neither TCs are after taksim any more, nor are we after domination/annihilation/whatever of the TC community), we can start working on the political problem. Only then can it be solved, instead of closed. For now, we are in desperate need of a start.

What's certain, in my book, is that the political problem can't be solved until the attitudes have changed. And the only way for attitudes to change, is for co-operation to be forced upon us (that's how I saw the A-Plan; not as the 'perfect plan'). We can't do it ourselves. We are way too poisoned by now.

That's how I see hope.

P.S.: I'm not trying to pick a long, heated debate on this. We disagree on very basic issues and we'll probably never agree. I'm just trying to get you to understand what I'm saying, just as I try to understand what you're saying.

[Kifeas]

double posting

[Kifeas]

double posting

[Kifeas]

Conspiring day and night?
I really think you're giving us much more weight than we really have... I presume you are referring to the Anglo-American political leadership. I'm sorry, but this 'the world revolves around us' theme finds me in disagreement. If anything, I'd say they don't give a rat's ass about us.

Jimmy,
It is not necessary for the entire nation or the entire political leadership to be involved with Cyprus, day and night. I know it is not the only problem they have. However, they have specialised branches, specialised think tanks, etc. The embassies do also a lot of the job for this purpose. They do the job and they present their hostile anti-Cypriot plans to the leadership in order to get final approvals. Yes day and night. Even this very momment they do it. They even read our postings in this forum to make our psychographic profiles. They even employee psychologists and marketers for this purpose.
But they well not succeed. For this I am sure!

[Piratis]

What they want us to accept is worse' is just your personal opinion, which I don't share.

I agree that is my personal opinion. We all have an opinion, and your opinion is respected. However the majority of people rejected the A plan in the referendum. Don't you think that this is something that should be respected by the rest? I have no problem with people saying that voting 'yes' was the right thing to do. What I have a problem with is when people disregard the expressed will of the majority and they side with our enemies to force on us what we clearly said we do not want.

What they're asking us to accept (even if we agreed that it's worse than what we have now) may just take us down the right road, because (and this is my personal opinion, which you don't share, I guess) we are carrying the experience (and the lost lives and the suffering) of the last 42 years on our backs. Do you really believe that, even with a bad solution, the two communities will find themselves in an adversarial position again? I don't.

Can you tell me where that "right road" you think will lead? I see you are very optimistic, but do you believe that there is even one chance in a million that the TCs will voluntarily give up anything that they will gain from an agreement? If by "right road" you simply mean that the GCs will learn to live as a second category citizens with 1/4th voting rights etc and they will never dare to complain again because they will be scared of another invasion, this is not my kind of dream for a better future for me and my children and the road that leads to this is no good for me.

[Bananiot]

I do not intend to reply to Kifeas, I think there is nothing more to add. I only wish he wouldn't jump to conclusions about my party affiliations and my ideology simply because I supported the "yes" vote and because I consider that Papadopoulos will lead our country to partition. I realise that my position on Papadopoulos may offend some people but it’s my right to express my views and I challenge anybody to point to one lie I said about Papadopoulos. I would like to summarise:

1. Papadopoulos has rejected every plan proposed for the solution of the Cyprob since 1955.
2. He was the vice president of the treacherous Akritas Plan that aimed at "cleaning" the TC community in one night.
3. Various prominent AKEL leaders of the past have characterised him as a Turk hater.
4. He sent a letter to the American Ambassador in 1964 warning that "if the Turkish fleet enters Cyprus waters, we have the PLAN and the MEANS to clean up all the TC's".
5. He is double faced. He accused, on numerous occasions, the late Kyprianou of being a psychopath whom foreign leaders laugh when they hear him, but now he reads the obituaries in his memorial services, telling us all what a great man he was!
6. He admitted publicly that partition is better than the A Plan.
7. His policies since becoming President have deguildified (cannedmoose, does such word exist?) Turkey.
8. Because of him we have lost many friends. We are now considered the intransigent part by all international institutions.
9. We have a President who is not respected internationally and this scares me.
10. He will not make known the changes he would like to the A plan despite numerous call by the UN to do so.
11. He introduces so many prerequisites before talks can be convened that practically makes the convening of talks impossible.
12. He hand picks the journalist that would interview him in his first major interview since becoming a President.
13. He is very divisive, labelling those that disagree with him traitors and paid agents of foreign powers.
14. He has open fronts with all the major powers of the world and his supporters think that this is a heroic stance.
15. The list can go on and on, but I will terminate it here and I kindly ask people to tell me where I am wrong.

[Piratis]

I kindly ask people to tell me where I am wrong.

Bananiot, you adopt every single accusation about Papadopoulos, even things that are absolutely nothing more than rumors and mud against him.

All politicians have their enemies, and for every politician a list like the above can be created in no time. (nothing easier than throwing mud).

[Bananiot]

"Bananiot, you adopt every single accusation about Papadopoulos, even things that are absolutely nothing more than rumors and mud against him".

Would you like to be more specific? Which particular point I listed is a product of malicious rumour or it is aiming at mud slinging to discretid the President?

In the meantime here is another point:

During the EOKA era, using the pseudo name Defkalion, he authorised the murder of many leftists who were charged, surprise surprise of being traitors and paid agents.

[magikthrill]

One thing I got from this thread is that although Papadopoulos is obviously not a perfect leader I am saddened by the poisoned minds of people on this forum that see him as a barrier to a solution.

personally, i refuse to make any judgements until a fair solution (political equality, bizonal, right of return - the whole nine yards) has been proposed and then see how he reacts to that.