Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

*Somehow Kifeas thinks that I am a member of an extreme right wing organisation, such as EOKA B. In a scale from 1 to 10, where 1 stands for the extreme left and 10 stands for the extreme right, I consider myself to be about 4.

Ok Bananiot, I am also on that spot on the same scale, but I have a different opinion.

*The extreme right in the GC community find themselves in the same boat as Kifeas and all the living "legends" of EOKA B that I know were against the A Plan.

Really?? 76% of the people are on the same boat like the EOKA B “legends”? 80% of Akel supporters, 80% of Diko, even 60% of EDY who voted No are on the same boat like the EOKA B “legends”?

*Where in heaven did he get the idea that I propose a coup to overthrow Papadopoullos?

You didn’t speak of an armed revolution or a coup but you spoke of a velvet revolution and we all know very well that this is what the Americans are organising at this moment in order to overthrow Papadopoullos. They even admitted it indirectly. Are you on the same boat with them? We do not have the democratic right to say No to them and their plans? Why instead they do not try to find out the reasons why we rejected it and see what they can do about it? Until a few weeks ago they were constantly repeating that this is the plan, take it or live it!

*He does not realise, also, that even a democratically elected official is open to criticism. I think it is a platitude to repeat the obvious but it appears the truth has to fight all the way to reach the surface.

Yes Bananiot, I realise that, but this is not what you do. It is not well-indented criticism that you do but distortion and mud sliding. You do not do constructive criticism but destructive criticism. I will be the first one to welcome any constructive criticism on your behalf. However all you do is tell us how bad a character is Papadopoullos, how much a Turk hater he is, how murderous and the rest of lies that you spread. What goal do you achieve by doing this other than an attempt to discredit him and renter him incapable to convince the TC community to negotiate with him in good faith. Do you want him to fail in order to “legitimise” your decision to support the plan?

*Thanks Jimmy for your support. However, you need to excuse them. Papadopoullos started all this nonsense in an effort to divide the society. First he claimed that the people that voted yes, 24% and more than 100 000, were traitors and later he claimed that we were paid by foreigners.

Bananiot, I didn’t accuse you directly that you are a paid agent. But perhaps unintentionally you act in a way that equates to that. You behave in a replicating fashion like the Anglo-Americans would want you to do.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas are having problems swallowing the truth and reality pills?

[Kifeas]

*I guess bombing Anastasiadis' (DISI) house doesn't count? Oh, I forgot that he did it to himself because he's a traitor, right?

I am not denying that there are also undemocratic acts in the south. However if you are trying to convince me that the south is as bad as the north regarding outside (Turkish) involvement, control and undemocratic attacks against the press and politicians, you are loosing your time. Perhaps recently there was some (considerable) improvement in the north too. However it only recent (last 2-3 years.) As for Anastasiades, it was probably the only such event during the last 10 years. One cannot exclude the possibility that he might have intrigued it as well. Is it totally impossible? Ask Denktash and will explain to you how it can be done, because he did it several times in the past. Didn’t he bomb (his TMT) the Mosques in 1963, in order to charge them to the GCs and when those two TC Journalists uncovered his plot they were soon murdered?

*Also, that GC documentary maker couldn't find a single channel in the south to show his documentary about TC massacres at Atlilar-Murataga-Sandallar but I guess that's also part of "the free culture" in the south.

I didn’t see the documentary my self but as you can read from my postings I have no problem accepting that these things happened. At least a GC Cypriot did a documentary about atrocities against TCs. When did a TC do an equivalent documentary about similar atrocities that TC irregulars and the Turkish Army did against GCs in 1974? I am asking only to do and not to show it in any TC media.

*Majorities can be wrong too...just like how white Americans used to think that slavery was ok, or majority Germans who supported Nazis. So if German made fun of Hitler and the majority of Germans during WW2, he would be disrespecting the democratic choice of the people?

So GC’s rejection of the A-plan and their support for Papadopoullos is equivalent to the Americans supporting slavery or the Germans supporting the Nazis and Papadopoullos is an equivalent to Hitler?

[metecyp]

I am not denying that there are also undemocratic acts in the south. However if you are trying to convince me that the south is as bad as the north regarding outside (Turkish) involvement, control and undemocratic attacks against the press and politicians, you are loosing your time.

I'm trying to convince you that the south is not the democracy and freedom heaven that you're trying to portray.

I didn’t see the documentary my self but as you can read from my postings I have no problem accepting that these things happened.

I wasn't talking about you personally anyway! Apparantly the free media in the south has a big problem with it though..that's the problem.

At least a GC Cypriot did a documentary about atrocities against TCs. When did a TC do an equivalent documentary about similar atrocities that TC irregulars and the Turkish Army did against GCs in 1974? I am asking only to do and not to show it in any TC media.

I agree, at least a GC did a documentary. A TC journalist, Sevgul Uludag, had a series of articles in a major newspaper in the north in the last few months. She interviewed some GCs and wrote what they went through during 1974. And this newspaper is either 2nd or 3rd best-selling newspaper in the north. Maybe it wasn't as powerful as a documetary but at least it reached to thousands of people and TC society had no problem digesting it...unlike the documentary that was never shown in the south.

[Saint Jimmy]

Jimmy,
He spoke about velvet revolution and not velvet partition.

Yes, true, that was my typing slip (not a Freudian one, fortunately ).

I consider it an hybris (insult) to equate the Denktashist and Turkish deep state –military dominated “TRNC” in which the TCs are almost outnumbered by the settlers and are pray to the Turkish domination and control, with the democratic climate and culture of the free areas. In the south we do not have settlers to keep any Denktash in power through bribes and land distribution, we do not murder journalist and bomb opposition newspapers, we do not have 40,000 Turkish army to control our police and dictate the terms of the political game, we do not have a prime minister that reports to the Turkish generals, etc, etc, etc. How can one equate the two and speak about a revolution by getting out in the streets like the TCs did in year 2003. Is it how the RoCy functions? Like “TRNC”?

I really think this picture you're painting is a distorted one (I am not implying that you're doing it intentionally). The TC community has a functioning administration (albeit an unrecognised one, and yes, with its flaws), and we are no strangers to corruption and crime, even though we are a recognised state.
I don't think we are in any position to talk about controlling the police...
And no, we don't have 40,000 of army to control anything, but we have the Army of Church, which amounts to a pretty similar thing, only without the guns.
These are just examples (maybe even bad ones). The point is, our state is not perfect, either, man. We're just differently imperfect.
I believe this perceptually twisted image we insist on (besides not reflecting the absolute reality) does us no good any more.
My perception of the 'TRNC' is obviously different to yours.

And here we go again with the paid traitors... Come on, man, throw me a bone here!
What do you know that I don't?

I do not say that all those that supported the A-plan are paid traitors. There are a number of reasons as to why people voted in favour. Some (the minority) genuinely believed that it was a fair deal. Some of them got frighten (the majority) by the threads of Solana and Powel and Verhaughen and all the rest of the boys, that it will be our end if we say No, some of them because they had immediate economic interests like the people of Derynia whose very valuable property (90% of it,) was on the coast line within the buffer zone and they would get it back immediately. And Yes, some of them, including the entire YES campaign, were funded by UNOPS, which as we know gets all her money from the American C.I.A. This is not a secret.

Funded by UNOPS (a claim which, incidentally, I thought has been proven false, but anyway) does not mean 'paid traitors'. Can you see? If what I believe in is in line with American interests (which of course they will fund!), that does not make me a traitor... What you're saying is the other way around: that the people who were 'funded by UNOPS' formed their decisions based on this funding. Where do you base this?
Were Anastasiades and Papapetrou, etc., not always (well, in recent years) in favour of the positions they now advocate? Did they change their minds? Is it not possible that they came to their decisions on conviction alone?

Who gets paid by the CIA?

Ask bananiot and he will tell you who gets the UNOPS funds.

I thought you said it's no secret
Seriously, the UNOPS funds are all accounted for in USAID's report, and only $14,000 have been allocated to the 'Yes' campaign, for fliers that were handed around in the streets. T-Pap told us otherwise, but the only info we have to go on is the Americans' report (which the President cited, by the way), as no one else bothered to supply us with any further information.

Again not all of them were paid. Some of them have been influenced by leaders that they considered an authenticity in politics and the Cyprus problem, like Clerides, Vasilliou, Anastasiades, etc, etc.

But Bananiot was paid? If so, how do you know?
If not, why can he not speak his mind? Why do you constantly attack him?
I mean, it's not like he's talking about T-Pap's mother or something! He's saying things that you may not like or disagree with, but which are also political interpretations, and as such, (I believe) must be respected. And answered to.

The Anglo-Americans conspire every day and every night on how to capitalise on our rejection of the plan and set traps against us, showing complete disrespect for our democratic decision. They nearly attempted to pass a resolution in the UN security council in order to cancel the previous resolutions and recognise the TRNC. We cannot forget this. People like Bananiot attempt to spread lies, rumours and demoralising comments and these are just unacceptable.

Conspiring day and night?
I really think you're giving us much more weight than we really have... I presume you are referring to the Anglo-American political leadership. I'm sorry, but this 'the world revolves around us' theme finds me in disagreement. If anything, I'd say they don't give a rat's ass about us.

I accept your right to have a different opinion on the nature of the plan. I also accept your right to express this opinion. What I cannot accept is disrespect for the will of the majority like bananiot does all the time and an attempt to downgrade and belittle the president for his choices, with lies and rumours, and also to speak about “velvet revolutions” as if we are some kind of a third world country that has no democratic procedures. However, this will never happen here because the people know that behind these movements are the Americans, who think they will be able to replicate what they did in the north with the TCs.

What did they do in the North with the TCs? They removed Denktash and installed Talat? I would think you'd consider that a good move!
Bananiot's main argument is that T-Pap is working against a solution. I take it you are suggesting the opposite? To put words in Bananiot's mouth, I put it to you that T-Pap now has the opportunity to re-commence negotiations ('tell us what you want so we can get going'), but he's refusing to take it. Bananiot's saying that this is because he doesn't want to solve it (or because he doesn't want to solve it based on the BBF model, which amounts to the same thing). Why do you think he's doing it?

[Viewpoint]

Saint Jimmy

I really think this picture you're painting is a distorted one (I am not implying that you're doing it intentionally). The TC community has a functioning administration (albeit an unrecognised one, and yes, with its flaws), and we are no strangers to corruption and crime, even though we are a recognised state.

Well said Saint, first bit of balanced writing Ive read for ages, well done.

[Viewpoint]

I was actually refering to the whole piece

[Piratis]

Today, with the current balance of power there is no way that the Cyprus problem can be solved. What can be done today is to close the Cyprus problem in a very negative way for us.
So the way I see it we can choose between:
a) Close the Cyprus problem the way the Turks, British and Americans want it. This doesn't solve our problem, on the contrary it creates a much bigger problem for us. It solves the problem for Turkey and for TCs.

or

b) Work in a way that a true solution will be possible at some point in the future and meanwhile create an ever bigger problem for Turkey.

Way a = we lost, the won

Way b = we loose, they loose AND the possibility for a good solution in the future is not killed.

For me it is clear which way is the best. For Papadopoulos it is clear. For the great majority of GCs is clear as well.

We do not want to close the Cyprus problem, we want a solution.

For those ones that claim we should declare defeat and let the "winers" to walk over us, we said and we will keep saying a huge NO.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

For those ones that claim we should declare defeat and let the "winers" to walk over us, we said and we will keep saying a huge NO.

Man say what the hell you want, keep going just as you are and say no to everything in sight, we have no problem with that, will soon backfire in your faces.

Way a = we lost, the won

Way b = we loose, they loose AND the possibility for a good solution in the future is not killed.

Why do you always approach the situation as war the enemy wins we loose, this reveals your true mentality with regards to solving the problem.

b) Work in a way that a true solution will be possible at some point in the future and meanwhile create an ever bigger problem for Turkey.

reeks of sincerity and genuine desire for a mutually beneficial solution. (does it hell)

[Saint Jimmy]

Scenario A ignores the possibility of the two communities being forced to work together by the instinct of survival (if a solution/closing doesn't work again, it's going to be over, no turning back), thus re-establishing the lost trust and alleviating the resentment - and then we can have any solution we want. If we don't plan on making the same mistakes again, it might just work out that way.

Scenario B ignores the factor that changed the dreams, hopes and demands of the Greeks who lived in Asia Minor then and now - time.

And yes, we can keep saying NO until hell freezes over. There's nothing to stop us. And when I have kids, and my kid asks me, I'll copy and paste "For those ones that claim we should declare defeat and let the "winers" to walk over us, we said and we will keep saying a huge NO."

I'm pretty sure that'll make all the sense in the world to him.