Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

I can take on board what you say, even though your dscription is on the racist side...in my opinion...coz you can't blame the people for failures of the government...YOur description of the population is not their fault but a bio product of government policies...victims of circumstances...and this makes it a racist comment...

In my way of thinking the fix is to decentralise the government and with a population of 70 odd million, and diversified as you say then the solution is through federation...something similar to the USA, Oz, etc...This will take care of the needs of the people...Federation with a strong federal governmant and la ocal government to take care of the needs of the people...

My needs in Vic are way different to the needs of lets say Queensland or NSW...

there are not a horde of nations trying to take your country apart Boomers so Turkeys problems are to stay together as well as modify its policies...Siga siga my friend......We do not want a massive war in the region...

What horde of nations are you talking about Zan?...the problem is within and this becsuae of centralised government and centralised policies...

Become a federation with a strong government and let the local governments take care of the population...As I said the needs of people from Istanbul are different from the needs for the people in SE...
Give people the ability to govern them selves...

The experiment has failed and this why "turkey=fascist state" is in the poo today...

Greece, Russia, Armenia, Iraq (Was) is that enough?????

[boomerang]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

I can take on board what you say, even though your dscription is on the racist side...in my opinion...coz you can't blame the people for failures of the government...YOur description of the population is not their fault but a bio product of government policies...victims of circumstances...and this makes it a racist comment...

In my way of thinking the fix is to decentralise the government and with a population of 70 odd million, and diversified as you say then the solution is through federation...something similar to the USA, Oz, etc...This will take care of the needs of the people...Federation with a strong federal governmant and la ocal government to take care of the needs of the people...

My needs in Vic are way different to the needs of lets say Queensland or NSW...

there are not a horde of nations trying to take your country apart Boomers so Turkeys problems are to stay together as well as modify its policies...Siga siga my friend......We do not want a massive war in the region...

What horde of nations are you talking about Zan?...the problem is within and this becsuae of centralised government and centralised policies...

Become a federation with a strong government and let the local governments take care of the population...As I said the needs of people from Istanbul are different from the needs for the people in SE...
Give people the ability to govern them selves...

The experiment has failed and this why "turkey=fascist state" is in the poo today...

Greece, Russia, Armenia, Iraq (Was) is that enough?????

You used the word "WAS"...and not now..."turkey=fascists state" is part of NATO and her borders are guaranteed...So the "was" doctrine is not really applicable today...

[zan]

The was for Iraq but never mind.....Turkeys problems in the region are massive and they are from within as well as you said...

Sorry mate but I need to go to bed now...Goodnight...

[boomerang]

The was for Iraq but never mind.....Turkeys problems in the region are massive and they are from within as well as you said...

Sorry mate but I need to go to bed now...Goodnight...

Night Zan

[BirKibrisli]

Shahmaran is more than capable of spelling out his own take on politics, but here is my response :

Democracy is not something that is given by a beneficient and caring ruling class. It is a power which has been struggled for across centuries by ordinary people, from all over the world. Thus any democratic gain has been the result of struggle and not the gift or favour of the already rich and powerful.

National ruling classes have always tried to prevent and repress democratic politics. All that being the case, Shahmaran's original question - whether taken out of context or not - is perfectly valid : what can we expect of democracy ?

Also instead of using his comments as a divisive accusation - Oracle's interest is yet again driven by malice - why not take it for the accurate description that it is ('idiots' aside) ? After all Shahmaran is right : take any comparative set of indicators of average income, levels of literacy, educational qualifications, health indicators, etc and you'll find Turkey ranks lower than all other European countries in virtually all categories. Is ranked higher in some categories and lower in others compared with various Middle Eastern, Asian, and Latin American countries.

Given these historical circumstances and conditions which Shahmaran accurately described, what can we expect of democracy ? And is it the kind of democracy that we want ? Is it a democratic politics which will contribute to the resolution of the Cyprus problem or is it of a kind which will exacerbate it ? How far can the Turkish army, in particular in my view, be subjected to democratic control and accountability ? In short, as Shahmaran asked, what can we expect of democracy ?


People like Pantheman need to work out what they want to try and criticise Shahmaran about ! Is it that Shahmaran is reporting the truth about Turkey or is it that Shahmaran is not conforming to Pantheman's stereotype.

The trouble is not with "democracy" but with those who are putting it into practice...I believe the only time where Democracy was truly practised was in Athena during the times of Socrates...Human beings being what they are,managed to corrupt it and made it serve the powerful few,instead of the masses...Can we honestly say there is democracy anywhere in the world today??? Is the USA democratic???Is it working for the good of all,or for the good of the rich and the powerful,and their means of richess,big and small corporations??? You cannot talk about real democracy when you need to be at least a millionaire to get into serious politics.

We need to ask ourselves too,if Democracy is suitable for all types of societies...We all know what happened in Africa when the colonisers left leaving behind a bad copy of their idea of people's rule...In Turkey today what is practised is not democracy,even if you forget the influence of the military...People are supporting political parties like people support football teams...With misplaced passion but very little sense...And how does the AKP win their votes? By regularly giving out food and coal supplies behind the curtain of Islamic charity...This is perfectly aceptable,it seems,in a country like Turkey,where it would be a scandal if practised by a party in the West..Imagine the British labour Party handing out petrol vauchers or food parcels to the working classes at election time...I am not saying that voter manipulation does not happen in the West. The means hovever are different...But what are we to do??? As there will never be a better system,we have to put up with the imperfections and hope that with public education,people will one day learn to differentiate between the morally corrupt,the corrupt,and the plain opportunists...

[BirKibrisli]

I am not misrepresenting you Bir...You are doing that just nicely all by yourself......You need to get a more balanced view of what the WORLD is like and how the people of the EU got where they are today and how they are misusing that power on a daily basis before condemning your own.....We ran away from Cyprus for fear of being killed and or starving to death........Laws were put into place to prevent that but the so called inventors of democracy seem to use it only when it suits them and sod the rest of us. Their kind of democracy can kiss my ass.......Or real Cypriot if you like.....

I mean...Look what GR wrote as his answer to undemocratic ways of the GCs...

We are not writing well-balanced newspaper articles here,Zan...
We are talking from the heart,jumping in where we have something personal to say about a topic...You are making this mistake...you think that if i criticise our side,i must be approving everything that the other side is doing on that subject. That is not so...You are right to think that I am concentrating mostly on our mistakes. That is intentional. We need all the diversity we can get on this Forum..We will never get anywhere if we all just talked up our own side while putting down the other side all the time...We have a long way to go in accepting self-criticism...But only when we can see the faults of our own side,and can talk about them openly and honestly can we expect to see the other side's point of view...
This is essential if we are ever going to find a compromise solution...When you criticise something or someone,it does not necessarily mean you hate them or everything about them...You could be loving them with a passion and want them to better themselves or not to make mistakes...Like parents who sometimes have to criticise or punish their children...

[BirKibrisli]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

Shah...I had the great pleasure of meeting Aziz Nesin when he was visiting Sydney in the early 90s...It was at the height of the heat generated by his comments that 60% of the Turkish people are stupid...

I asked him if he still stood by what he said..."Not,really," he answered,"I was wrong about that. The real fugure is about 85%!!!"

One night we took him to eat seafood at a restaurant on Sydney harbour...Someone asked him if he thought Sydney harbour was similar to Istanbul's.."Not at all,'he said with a mischievous smile,"Sydney harbour does not smell..."

[zan]

Shahmaran is more than capable of spelling out his own take on politics, but here is my response :

Democracy is not something that is given by a beneficient and caring ruling class. It is a power which has been struggled for across centuries by ordinary people, from all over the world. Thus any democratic gain has been the result of struggle and not the gift or favour of the already rich and powerful.

National ruling classes have always tried to prevent and repress democratic politics. All that being the case, Shahmaran's original question - whether taken out of context or not - is perfectly valid : what can we expect of democracy ?

Also instead of using his comments as a divisive accusation - Oracle's interest is yet again driven by malice - why not take it for the accurate description that it is ('idiots' aside) ? After all Shahmaran is right : take any comparative set of indicators of average income, levels of literacy, educational qualifications, health indicators, etc and you'll find Turkey ranks lower than all other European countries in virtually all categories. Is ranked higher in some categories and lower in others compared with various Middle Eastern, Asian, and Latin American countries.

Given these historical circumstances and conditions which Shahmaran accurately described, what can we expect of democracy ? And is it the kind of democracy that we want ? Is it a democratic politics which will contribute to the resolution of the Cyprus problem or is it of a kind which will exacerbate it ? How far can the Turkish army, in particular in my view, be subjected to democratic control and accountability ? In short, as Shahmaran asked, what can we expect of democracy ?


People like Pantheman need to work out what they want to try and criticise Shahmaran about ! Is it that Shahmaran is reporting the truth about Turkey or is it that Shahmaran is not conforming to Pantheman's stereotype.

The trouble is not with "democracy" but with those who are putting it into practice...I believe the only time where Democracy was truly practised was in Athena during the times of Socrates...Human beings being what they are,managed to corrupt it and made it serve the powerful few,instead of the masses...Can we honestly say there is democracy anywhere in the world today??? Is the USA democratic???Is it working for the good of all,or for the good of the rich and the powerful,and their means of richess,big and small corporations??? You cannot talk about real democracy when you need to be at least a millionaire to get into serious politics.

We need to ask ourselves too,if Democracy is suitable for all types of societies...We all know what happened in Africa when the colonisers left leaving behind a bad copy of their idea of people's rule...In Turkey today what is practised is not democracy,even if you forget the influence of the military...People are supporting political parties like people support football teams...With misplaced passion but very little sense...And how does the AKP win their votes? By regularly giving out food and coal supplies behind the curtain of Islamic charity...This is perfectly aceptable,it seems,in a country like Turkey,where it would be a scandal if practised by a party in the West..Imagine the British labour Party handing out petrol vauchers or food parcels to the working classes at election time...I am not saying that voter manipulation does not happen in the West. The means hovever are different...But what are we to do??? As there will never be a better system,we have to put up with the imperfections and hope that with public education,people will one day learn to differentiate between the morally corrupt,the corrupt,and the plain opportunists...

I think you will find that the handing out of petrol coupons is really done....Offering tax breaks to special groups or paying lip service to improving education for example is the norm. The difference is that those in Turkey actually get the food...We, in the west just get more disappointment.

[zan]

I am not misrepresenting you Bir...You are doing that just nicely all by yourself......You need to get a more balanced view of what the WORLD is like and how the people of the EU got where they are today and how they are misusing that power on a daily basis before condemning your own.....We ran away from Cyprus for fear of being killed and or starving to death........Laws were put into place to prevent that but the so called inventors of democracy seem to use it only when it suits them and sod the rest of us. Their kind of democracy can kiss my ass.......Or real Cypriot if you like.....

I mean...Look what GR wrote as his answer to undemocratic ways of the GCs...

We are not writing well-balanced newspaper articles here,Zan...
We are talking from the heart,jumping in where we have something personal to say about a topic...You are making this mistake...you think that if i criticise our side,i must be approving everything that the other side is doing on that subject. That is not so...You are right to think that I am concentrating mostly on our mistakes. That is intentional. We need all the diversity we can get on this Forum..We will never get anywhere if we all just talked up our own side while putting down the other side all the time...We have a long way to go in accepting self-criticism...But only when we can see the faults of our own side,and can talk about them openly and honestly can we expect to see the other side's point of view...
This is essential if we are ever going to find a compromise solution...When you criticise something or someone,it does not necessarily mean you hate them or everything about them...You could be loving them with a passion and want them to better themselves or not to make mistakes...Like parents who sometimes have to criticise or punish their children...

There is a place to practice these thoughts and then there is the Cyprob....


And please...Spare me the lesson once more that you have more empathy than me.......I fully understand where the GCs are coming from....But as you do with the Turks, I do with the GCs...Tell them where they are going wrong.

[zan]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

Shah...I had the great pleasure of meeting Aziz Nesin when he was visiting Sydney in the early 90s...It was at the height of the heat generated by his comments that 60% of the Turkish people are stupid...

I asked him if he still stood by what he said..."Not,really," he answered,"I was wrong about that. The real fugure is about 85%!!!"

One night we took him to eat seafood at a restaurant on Sydney harbour...Someone asked him if he thought Sydney harbour was similar to Istanbul's.."Not at all,'he said with a mischievous smile,"Sydney harbour does not smell..."

It seems that while you were feeding him...He was feeding you.