Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Not trying to lose posts with your silly games are you GR and that woman from mainland Greece Stella!!!!

Zan ... you are truly the master at pulling GR!'s strings ... you only have to mention the words Greece or Greek and he is putty in your hands ...

You have worked wonders on him today .... now put him down!

How do you "initiate further discussion and analysis" yourself oh purveyor of fine messages .... by sucking up to Zan et al.?

Go figure...

Less sucking up to Zan and more exemplifying how you two are co-dependent .....

....didums ... have I come in-between the two of you?

Zan ... GR! is all yours ...

GR! .... Zan is all yours ...

Now go play boys ..... I have a 10 year old to put to bed ....

[Get Real!]

Less sucking up to Zan and more exemplifying how you two are co-dependent .....

There’s only so much pressure from the swelling that Zan’s brain can take so please consider his health when posting…

[Oracle]

Less sucking up to Zan and more exemplifying how you two are co-dependent .....

There’s only so much pressure from the swelling that Zan’s brain can take so please consider his health when posting…

OK ... I'll leave that in your capable hands ..... and anything else of his you care to swell

[CopperLine]

Shahmaran is more than capable of spelling out his own take on politics, but here is my response :

Democracy is not something that is given by a beneficient and caring ruling class. It is a power which has been struggled for across centuries by ordinary people, from all over the world. Thus any democratic gain has been the result of struggle and not the gift or favour of the already rich and powerful.

National ruling classes have always tried to prevent and repress democratic politics. All that being the case, Shahmaran's original question - whether taken out of context or not - is perfectly valid : what can we expect of democracy ?

Also instead of using his comments as a divisive accusation - Oracle's interest is yet again driven by malice - why not take it for the accurate description that it is ('idiots' aside) ? After all Shahmaran is right : take any comparative set of indicators of average income, levels of literacy, educational qualifications, health indicators, etc and you'll find Turkey ranks lower than all other European countries in virtually all categories. Is ranked higher in some categories and lower in others compared with various Middle Eastern, Asian, and Latin American countries.

Given these historical circumstances and conditions which Shahmaran accurately described, what can we expect of democracy ? And is it the kind of democracy that we want ? Is it a democratic politics which will contribute to the resolution of the Cyprus problem or is it of a kind which will exacerbate it ? How far can the Turkish army, in particular in my view, be subjected to democratic control and accountability ? In short, as Shahmaran asked, what can we expect of democracy ?


People like Pantheman need to work out what they want to try and criticise Shahmaran about ! Is it that Shahmaran is reporting the truth about Turkey or is it that Shahmaran is not conforming to Pantheman's stereotype.

[CopperLine]

Piratis wrote :

And only a few European countries have been colonial powers with Empires anywhere near what the Turks had. And all of them lost their empires, this didn't happen only to the Turks.

There is really no excuse for Turkey. The Turkish leadership (= army) simply doesn't have the well being of the people as a priority.

"Only a few" ? Unfortunately not so : in terms of modern successors, the following all had extensive empires whose colonies were invariably subjected to the bloodiest of imperial control over centuries - Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Denmark, Austria, Russia ... and just to keep BC NADIA happy ..we could throw in the Roman Catholic church through the Vatican !

In fact the high point of the territorial extent of the Ottoman empire - early eighteenth century - made it a relatively small empire by the standards of Spain, France, Britain and Russia (even of Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany). Moreover a history of the collapse of the Ottoman empire would also show that it was certainly no more bloody than that of many other European empires, the Armenian genocide notwithstanding.

The Ottoman empire was a dynastic empire; it was not a Turkish empire. The military, administrative, religious, and economic constitution of the empire was neither exclusively ethnically Turkish nor even predominantly ethnically Turkish.

[zan]

Less sucking up to Zan and more exemplifying how you two are co-dependent .....

There’s only so much pressure from the swelling that Zan’s brain can take so please consider his health when posting…

We have seen that your brain hasn't even got that capability many times GR.....You cannot think past the single move and must be useless at chess also.....

[zan]

What the hell are you doing Copperline.....You can't bring common sense into this thread!! Go find some real people to talk to

[boomerang]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

I can take on board what you say, even though your dscription is on the racist side...in my opinion...coz you can't blame the people for failures of the government...YOur description of the population is not their fault but a bio product of government policies...victims of circumstances...and this makes it a racist comment...

In my way of thinking the fix is to decentralise the government and with a population of 70 odd million, and diversified as you say then the solution is through federation...something similar to the USA, Oz, etc...This will take care of the needs of the people...Federation with a strong federal governmant and la ocal government to take care of the needs of the people...

My needs in Vic are way different to the needs of lets say Queensland or NSW...

[zan]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

I can take on board what you say, even though your dscription is on the racist side...in my opinion...coz you can't blame the people for failures of the government...YOur description of the population is not their fault but a bio product of government policies...victims of circumstances...and this makes it a racist comment...

In my way of thinking the fix is to decentralise the government and with a population of 70 odd million, and diversified as you say then the solution is through federation...something similar to the USA, Oz, etc...This will take care of the needs of the people...Federation with a strong federal governmant and la ocal government to take care of the needs of the people...

My needs in Vic are way different to the needs of lets say Queensland or NSW...

there are not a horde of nations trying to take your country apart Boomers so Turkeys problems are to stay together as well as modify its policies...Siga siga my friend......We do not want a massive war in the region...

[boomerang]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

I can take on board what you say, even though your dscription is on the racist side...in my opinion...coz you can't blame the people for failures of the government...YOur description of the population is not their fault but a bio product of government policies...victims of circumstances...and this makes it a racist comment...

In my way of thinking the fix is to decentralise the government and with a population of 70 odd million, and diversified as you say then the solution is through federation...something similar to the USA, Oz, etc...This will take care of the needs of the people...Federation with a strong federal governmant and la ocal government to take care of the needs of the people...

My needs in Vic are way different to the needs of lets say Queensland or NSW...

there are not a horde of nations trying to take your country apart Boomers so Turkeys problems are to stay together as well as modify its policies...Siga siga my friend......We do not want a massive war in the region...

What horde of nations are you talking about Zan?...the problem is within and this becsuae of centralised government and centralised policies...

Become a federation with a strong government and let the local governments take care of the population...As I said the needs of people from Istanbul are different from the needs for the people in SE...
Give people the ability to govern them selves...

The experiment has failed and this why "turkey=fascist state" is in the poo today...