Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

Democracy is not infallible, it's not perfect but it's the best thing we have got and there are times when I think we rule ourselves on a light and a prayer but the alternatives are the foul regimes of the former eastern bloc with their thought control and gulags and present day China with its treatment of the good people of Tibet. At worst of course they lead, as I say above, to Auchwistz.

Well that shouldn't go without mentioning who is actually committing the worst kind of human rights abuses in the world as we speak, Iraq and Palestine are very good examples and their incredibly inhumane and cruel fate is perpetuated by no one other than the "most democratic" and "civilised" countries around the world.

Ironic don't you think?

Clearly we are doing something terribly wrong.

[BirKibrisli]

I sometimes wonder what Turkey and the region would've looked like, politically and geographically,had the early Ottomans chosen Christianity instead of Islam as the state religion...

When you strip it down to the essentials,what is happening in Turkey today is a fight to the death between the educated, Westernised elite and the uneducated,Eastern-looking majority for political and economic power...

The westernised elite have the Military on their corner. The Easterners have God on theirs. Erdogan is using religion and democratic principles (which he neither understands nor respects) to advance the cause of his own side..The westerners who half-understand and half-respect Western-style democracy,have to depend on the threat of the military and the help of Deep-state run Judiciary to block the advance of the Easterners...To complicate the picture,the EU countries that presumable well-understand and well-respect democratic values are defending the rights of the Easterner to full democracy,knowing well that the first thing which will go should the Easterners have their way is secularism and democracy itself....The pity is,neither the Westerners nor the easterners are really concerned about the welfare of the people of Turkey...They see them as "idiots" (to borrow from Shah ) to be manipulated at election time,and given the mushroom threatment...(Kept in the dark and fed on bullshit-in this case, nationalist and religious bullshit respectively)...

The majority of these "idiots" are poor,hardworking,God-fearing,well-meaning individuals who have been let down badly by every government they have had since 1940s...This government or any alternative government will not be any different...The people of Turkey are cursed by their history,their geography,their religion,and their politicians...Limited democracy propped up by the Military is all we can expect in the foreseeable future...This is bad news to those who are putting all their eggs into the EU basket for a solution in Cyprus...It will never happen...

Sorry,but I am reposting this for fear that it might get lost in between all those gigantic quote-happy one or two liners....

I agree by most of what you have posted , but being a natural optimist and a firm believer that progress is far more a potent force than either religion or nationalism in the long term , I think Turkey will choose progress and the way forward is undoubtedly through Europe. I believe that in the next 10 to 15 years Turkey will be a European member and will
be reluctantly requested to adhere to the European principles and directives.
The Turkish educated classes are to the best of my knowledge pro army pro secularists and pro European , they will win the day and the rise of fundamentalist ideas Will be curtailed, how its another question.

I hope you are right,miltiades...Because the only thing which will make Turkey a fully democratic state will be membership of the EU...ERdogan is shrewd enough to realise that it is the only way he can hold onto power...Whether he stays there long enough to achieve it is another question...They are trying to pull the rug from under him as we speak...

[BirKibrisli]

I sometimes wonder what Turkey and the region would've looked like, politically and geographically,had the early Ottomans chosen Christianity instead of Islam as the state religion...

When you strip it down to the essentials,what is happening in Turkey today is a fight to the death between the educated, Westernised elite and the uneducated,Eastern-looking majority for political and economic power...

The westernised elite have the Military on their corner. The Easterners have God on theirs. Erdogan is using religion and democratic principles (which he neither understands nor respects) to advance the cause of his own side..The westerners who half-understand and half-respect Western-style democracy,have to depend on the threat of the military and the help of Deep-state run Judiciary to block the advance of the Easterners...To complicate the picture,the EU countries that presumable well-understand and well-respect democratic values are defending the rights of the Easterner to full democracy,knowing well that the first thing which will go should the Easterners have their way is secularism and democracy itself....The pity is,neither the Westerners nor the easterners are really concerned about the welfare of the people of Turkey...They see them as "idiots" (to borrow from Shah ) to be manipulated at election time,and given the mushroom threatment...(Kept in the dark and fed on bullshit-in this case, nationalist and religious bullshit respectively)...

The majority of these "idiots" are poor,hardworking,God-fearing,well-meaning individuals who have been let down badly by every government they have had since 1940s...This government or any alternative government will not be any different...The people of Turkey are cursed by their history,their geography,their religion,and their politicians...Limited democracy propped up by the Military is all we can expect in the foreseeable future...This is bad news to those who are putting all their eggs into the EU basket for a solution in Cyprus...It will never happen...

Sorry,but I am reposting this for fear that it might get lost in between all those gigantic quote-happy one or two liners....

I agree by most of what you have posted , but being a natural optimist and a firm believer that progress is far more a potent force than either religion or nationalism in the long term , I think Turkey will choose progress and the way forward is undoubtedly through Europe. I believe that in the next 10 to 15 years Turkey will be a European member and will
be reluctantly requested to adhere to the European principles and directives.
The Turkish educated classes are to the best of my knowledge pro army pro secularists and pro European , they will win the day and the rise of fundamentalist ideas Will be curtailed, how its another question.

I am glad that we agree on one thing at least Miltiades......Bir seems to forget that Greece went through wars against communism to get where it is today...Albeit a racist one.....But has no faith in the Turkish people ever becoming or having ever been a respectable people...In stead we should sell out to the cheapest bidder in self disgust and disillusionment. Luckily some of us will stay and fight the fight that is needed for such reforms which include dissidents from all over the region.....

Greece did not become democratic because of of the fight with communism. The Greeks invented democracy well before Karl Marx was born...They just had to find their way back to it,that's all.
You keep misinterpreting my ideas,Zan...Turkish people are very respectable today...They are just gullible when it comes to electing their leaders...Perhaps because they are not used to electing their rulers. Perhaps because they show too much respect for authority,don't question what they are being told by their politicians...

[shahmaran]

And may he hit the ground hard on his ass along with his bum chum Gul, they should have known better, Islamic agendas just hold that country back even further.

[Get Real!]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

Is Oracle working hard to discourage any future TC criticism of Turkey by initiating dedicated threads to “expose” and thus discourage TCs from speaking their minds?

Who is Oracle REALLY serving with her short sighted penny-wise and pound-foolish CyProb threads?

[zan]

I sometimes wonder what Turkey and the region would've looked like, politically and geographically,had the early Ottomans chosen Christianity instead of Islam as the state religion...

When you strip it down to the essentials,what is happening in Turkey today is a fight to the death between the educated, Westernised elite and the uneducated,Eastern-looking majority for political and economic power...

The westernised elite have the Military on their corner. The Easterners have God on theirs. Erdogan is using religion and democratic principles (which he neither understands nor respects) to advance the cause of his own side..The westerners who half-understand and half-respect Western-style democracy,have to depend on the threat of the military and the help of Deep-state run Judiciary to block the advance of the Easterners...To complicate the picture,the EU countries that presumable well-understand and well-respect democratic values are defending the rights of the Easterner to full democracy,knowing well that the first thing which will go should the Easterners have their way is secularism and democracy itself....The pity is,neither the Westerners nor the easterners are really concerned about the welfare of the people of Turkey...They see them as "idiots" (to borrow from Shah ) to be manipulated at election time,and given the mushroom threatment...(Kept in the dark and fed on bullshit-in this case, nationalist and religious bullshit respectively)...

The majority of these "idiots" are poor,hardworking,God-fearing,well-meaning individuals who have been let down badly by every government they have had since 1940s...This government or any alternative government will not be any different...The people of Turkey are cursed by their history,their geography,their religion,and their politicians...Limited democracy propped up by the Military is all we can expect in the foreseeable future...This is bad news to those who are putting all their eggs into the EU basket for a solution in Cyprus...It will never happen...

Sorry,but I am reposting this for fear that it might get lost in between all those gigantic quote-happy one or two liners....

I agree by most of what you have posted , but being a natural optimist and a firm believer that progress is far more a potent force than either religion or nationalism in the long term , I think Turkey will choose progress and the way forward is undoubtedly through Europe. I believe that in the next 10 to 15 years Turkey will be a European member and will
be reluctantly requested to adhere to the European principles and directives.
The Turkish educated classes are to the best of my knowledge pro army pro secularists and pro European , they will win the day and the rise of fundamentalist ideas Will be curtailed, how its another question.

I am glad that we agree on one thing at least Miltiades......Bir seems to forget that Greece went through wars against communism to get where it is today...Albeit a racist one.....But has no faith in the Turkish people ever becoming or having ever been a respectable people...In stead we should sell out to the cheapest bidder in self disgust and disillusionment. Luckily some of us will stay and fight the fight that is needed for such reforms which include dissidents from all over the region.....

Greece did not become democratic because of of the fight with communism. The Greeks invented democracy well before Karl Marx was born...They just had to find their way back to it,that's all.
You keep misinterpreting my ideas,Zan...Turkish people are very respectable today...They are just gullible when it comes to electing their leaders...Perhaps because they are not used to electing their rulers. Perhaps because they show too much respect for authority,don't question what they are being told by their politicians...

So those GCs electing their leader out of the top ten in EOKA as in Tpap were soooo right



I am not misrepresenting you Bir...You are doing that just nicely all by yourself......You need to get a more balanced view of what the WORLD is like and how the people of the EU got where they are today and how they are misusing that power on a daily basis before condemning your own.....We ran away from Cyprus for fear of being killed and or starving to death........Laws were put into place to prevent that but the so called inventors of democracy seem to use it only when it suits them and sod the rest of us. Their kind of democracy can kiss my ass.......Or real Cypriot if you like.....

I mean...Look what GR wrote as his answer to undemocratic ways of the GCs...

Anyway, if it were not for THOUSANDS of con artists trying to acquire illegal citizenship through marriages of convenience there wouldn’t have been such laws that test the authenticity of a marriage.

All these hurdles may not be convenient for you but they are there to protect the country and its genuine citizens.

This is what I am to give up my rights and fight against...No ta!!!!

[Oracle]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

Is Oracle working hard to discourage any future TC criticism of Turkey by initiating dedicated threads to “expose” and thus discourage TCs from speaking their minds?

Who is Oracle REALLY serving with her short sighted penny-wise and pound-foolish CyProb threads?

Perhaps if you use your "bionic" eyes to look at my initial thread post, you will see that I did not endorse an opinion on Shah's statement but used it to initiate further discussion and analysis about a very interesting viewpoint ...

May I suggest that you brush up on your debating skills and minimise your cyber-bullying tactics ... then more people may enjoy healthy debate, not less ....

C::F is not a "Gentleman's Club" made up only of the forumers which you select ...

So don't black-ball me or you will need to replace yours with bionic ones .....

[Get Real!]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

Is Oracle working hard to discourage any future TC criticism of Turkey by initiating dedicated threads to “expose” and thus discourage TCs from speaking their minds?

Who is Oracle REALLY serving with her short sighted penny-wise and pound-foolish CyProb threads?

Perhaps if you use your "bionic" eyes to look at my initial thread post, you will see that I did not endorse an opinion on Shah's statement but used it to initiate further discussion and analysis about a very interesting viewpoint ...

May I suggest that you brush up on your debating skills and minimise your cyber-bullying tactics ... then more people may enjoy healthy debate, not less ....

C::F is not a "Gentleman's Club" made up only of the forumers which you select ...

So don't black-ball me or you will need to replace yours with bionic ones .....

By your own admission, you started this thread to “initiate further discussion and analysis” and that of course coming from you essentially means to RIDICULE!

Your petty, shit-stirring, 2-cent threads don’t belong in the “Cyprus Problem” section of the forum so spare me the emotional drivel.

[shahmaran]

Shah posted what I consider to be a pretty good synopsis of the average Turk, and thereby exercised his right to an opinion. What I DON'T understand is the point of this thread...

I have also said that this is NOT exclusive to Turks alone and that it is the case world wide.

Therefore I'm not "mistakenly or reluctantly admitting" to no special secret, anyone who has been to Turkey would know exactly what i am talking about and anyone who has not can do nothing more than speculate through media and research.

Plus i have to also add that what i said has been originally said by a very famous Turkish writer called Aziz Nesin.

He was a very harsh critic of his country and had been jailed many times, never the less an extremely important person still. Basically he spent his life time fighting religious and ignorant baboons.

However his estimate was around %60 of the Turks being as such, which i find a bit too modest

Seriously though, good or bad, Turks do not hold a record on neither and generally are just normal people, therefore the consequent attacks on them in this forum are unjust and grossly exaggerated.

You cannot expect a fully and perfectly functioning government and democratic system with such a population. It is just too diverse on many levels for it to be encompassed under a single mentality.

Having said that, in some ways they are probably much better off than some of the latest incomers of the EU from Eastern Europe and dare i say, the Mediterranean

But of course no one would admit that

[Get Real!]

May I suggest that you brush up on your debating skills.....

Btw Oracle, you are probably not familiar with the old Greek saying that goes...

"Ela bappou na sou dixo ta ambelia sou!"