Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

The major problem facing the world today is none other than Religion. Show me a nation of religious people and I will show you a nation of intolerant , cruel , uneducated , poor peasants struggling NOT to survive , but to get to bloody heavens and be next to their torturer and mental rapist , their fictitious cruel nasty non compassionate NON existent God !!!

[Piratis]

Erm, the recent collapse of the Ottoman Empire?

Consequent attempts by the "all mighty civilised" powers to be, who tried VERY hard to partition her? (maybe that's why military is so important in Turkey Phoenix?)

Poverty?

Islam?

Corruption?

IMF?

Piratis you are talking about Europe and the US, very well, now we are on the same wave length.

We know how a VERY small portion of the worlds population came to be so filthy rich so quickly and why the rest is still fighting to survive.

What is your point?

The EU countries and the US have robbed the entire world from their resources and future, and now they have the face to turn around and laugh at them for being poor?

What the hell is this, some kind of a horror film?

I thought Cypriots would understand this better than anyone, since we still seem to be in SHIT due to similar reasons.

A "conquest attempt" is much less harmful than actually being captured and enslaved for centuries. Even the UK can claim a conquest attempt against it during WWII.

And only a few European countries have been colonial powers with Empires anywhere near what the Turks had. And all of them lost their empires, this didn't happen only to the Turks.

There is really no excuse for Turkey. The Turkish leadership (= army) simply doesn't have the well being of the people as a priority.

Take Cyprus as an example. If they really cared about TCs, then in the 60s or at the very least immediately after the invasion of 1974, they would have been reasonable in their demands so a fair solution could be found. If that happened then the standard of living of Cypriots as a whole would be much higher, and the standard of living of TCs in particular would be way way higher. But for the Army leadership of turkey the well being of the people means nothing. They count "victory" only with how many military battles they win, even if that makes the Turkish people the biggest losers.

[zan]

.... exploiting the defenceless wouldn't have anything to do with it of course

... Exactly shamaran ... that is precisely what Turkey does with its Military Might ... exploit its defenceless neighbours ....

And the Greeks use mainland Greeks like you to infiltrate and sabotage..........The snake from under the rock calling passers by snakes...

[umit07]

I looked at the title and said, hey thats a good change. But I see that, I shouldn't have kept the hopes too high. I agree with Shah on the comment if not a majority a very high percentage of the population is as shah says.

Umit old chap, the rest of the world and I expect more of you than this. You are trying to defend the indefensible. This goes far, far beyond our little squabble in Cy. Shah's comments strike at the very heart of some values that I for one hold very dearly, that is, amongst other things, that all people are created equal and have every right to live as equals, irrespective of their colour, gender, sexuality, IQ, wealth etc. etc.

Shah's comments are of the sort that, if they go unchallenged, starts us off on the road to the death camps of the Nazis.


I beg you Umit, look and think again of what has been written and condemn it.

Bill if you took the word "idoit" out would it make you better?

What Shah and I are trying to say that is that democracy is not just casting a vote every once and a while. Religion is Turkey is now being used a tool of preasure in politics , the AKP party and Erdogan are a bunch of bloodsuckers who don't give a shit about the country their only aim is to use religion as a tool to keep control. There are many people in Turkey whose only wish is to be able to put bread on the table and nothing else, they aren't in a position to give a shit about anything else and this is just sad. Hence democracy cannot function properly in this sort of environment. When you look at the stuff that goes on during election time just to get the votes it's crazy, you see trucks full of wheat and rice ( whose expiry dates have passed) being delivered to poor suburbs or even sacks of coal being given out in the middle of summer!! How can you expect a true democrasy with people that sell their votes for a sack of rice. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT blaming the people it's all the goverments fault for never being able to sustain such a large rapidly fast growing population. Turkey has an odd way of working, the separation of power has been distributed in a way which is all too interlocked with each other. The army has also seen itself as the last defence in keeping a secular state they have intervened in politics to an extent of evn hanging a prime-minister . Yet the people see the most trustworthy institution in the whole country as the army. Turkey needs to scrap all the religous bullshit and try to maintain a strong middle class, on paper Turkey seems to be economically growing fast but it ain't the guy on the street getting rich. In just 5 years the number of billionaries in TUrkey has increased from 8 to 22, but the people have gotten poorer.

I hope you understand what we are trying to say.

[zan]

Well said Umit.......

[Oracle]

...... and you turned your backs on the RoC for that?

Remind me again ... who are the idiots?

[zan]

...... and you turned your backs on the RoC for that?

Remind me again ... who are the idiots?

We have not started on the "RoC" yet...Only with the murderers and the highjackers so far.....

[umit07]

...... and you turned your backs on the RoC for that?

Remind me again ... who are the idiots?

The idiots are the ones who got an itch and chucked us out of our beloved Republic. Hence resulting in the "scratch the itch" opperation of 74" .

[bill cobbett]

I looked at the title and said, hey thats a good change. But I see that, I shouldn't have kept the hopes too high. I agree with Shah on the comment if not a majority a very high percentage of the population is as shah says.

Umit old chap, the rest of the world and I expect more of you than this. You are trying to defend the indefensible. This goes far, far beyond our little squabble in Cy. Shah's comments strike at the very heart of some values that I for one hold very dearly, that is, amongst other things, that all people are created equal and have every right to live as equals, irrespective of their colour, gender, sexuality, IQ, wealth etc. etc.

Shah's comments are of the sort that, if they go unchallenged, starts us off on the road to the death camps of the Nazis.


I beg you Umit, look and think again of what has been written and condemn it.

Bill if you took the word "idoit" out would it make you better?

What Shah and I are trying to say that is that democracy is not just casting a vote every once and a while. Religion is Turkey is now being used a tool of preasure in politics , the AKP party and Erdogan are a bunch of bloodsuckers who don't give a shit about the country their only aim is to use religion as a tool to keep control. There are many people in Turkey whose only wish is to be able to put bread on the table and nothing else, they aren't in a position to give a shit about anything else and this is just sad. Hence democracy cannot function properly in this sort of environment. When you look at the stuff that goes on during election time just to get the votes it's crazy, you see trucks full of wheat and rice ( whose expiry dates have passed) being delivered to poor suburbs or even sacks of coal being given out in the middle of summer!! How can you expect a true democrasy with people that sell their votes for a sack of rice. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT blaming the people it's all the goverments fault for never being able to sustain such a large rapidly fast growing population. Turkey has an odd way of working, the separation of power has been distributed in a way which is all too interlocked with each other. The army has also seen itself as the last defence in keeping a secular state they have intervened in politics to an extent of evn hanging a prime-minister . Yet the people see the most trustworthy institution in the whole country as the army. Turkey needs to scrap all the religous bullshit and try to maintain a strong middle class, on paper Turkey seems to be economically growing fast but it ain't the guy on the street getting rich. In just 5 years the number of billionaries in TUrkey has increased from 8 to 22, but the people have gotten poorer.

I hope you understand what we are trying to say.

Yes Umit, absolutely. Good of you to take idiot out. What about poor and uneducated? Are we to think less of a fellow human being because he /she is poor or uneducated?

Religion and Turkey - I know next to nothing about Turkey (outside Cyprus). I know a little about Gallipoli, the wars with the Greeks, the rise of Kemal Ataturk (may he rest in peace and I hope I have spelt his name correctly) and the importance to many, many of the good people of Turkey of his secularism. The problem I have is that (and I think Bir spoke of it earlier today or yesterday ) democracy cannot be enforced by a huge military machine. The two are incompatible and contradictory. In real terms, so far all I have seen seen of this religious ruling party in Turkey is the lifting of the ban on headscarves in schools.

As to the "free food if you vote for me" issue that you raise, well it happens even in the most mature democracies, it's just a bit more subtle so that , for instance, the ruling party here in GB may not want to lose votes in my (marginal) area by closing down the local hospital.

Coming back to the army thing, Turkey doesn't need an army of (what) a million troops to oppose foreign threats. The Generals of the Turkish army need it, more than the good people of Turkey. What Turkey needs is a continuation of its economic growth, more jobs, better paid workers, more schools to educate people all of which will lead to a ( if you don't mind my saying so) a real democracy for when people have money in their pockets, a decent health service and a decent education, they are less likely (imho) to be influenced by the religious extremists.

[umit07]

A person may be "Poor" and "uneducated" but that does not mean that I hold it against them as being inferior, it's not their fault. I am just stating it as a fact with no other intension. Well as far as I know the professional millitary is around 700,000 the rest are guys doing their millitary service. I am with you that an army cannot be enforce democracy , it was Ataturk himself who made the army officers of the time who were also MP's in the first ever parliment either drop their army ranks or go back. Bill waht worries me is that Turkey was should have passed all this a long time ago, my father was a student in Ankara during the late 60's and by what he tells me there was no such thing as the Turban or any religous crap to the extent there is today. When it comes to Turkey having a large army , I think that they have to in an area like the middle east.