Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

So 500 is OK but 35 is not?

How many years is the limit before you are legalised?

[Oracle]

So 500 is OK but 35 is not?

How many years is the limit before you are legalised?

Legalised to do what

Don't simplify the discussion so much that it has lost all meaning

..... otherwise I have wasted all evening discussing nothing with umit .....

[repulsewarrior]

the Turkish State is good at its External Affairs, and it has a long history refining their method. It is no different to any power that has sought to grow its own will using superior forces and acts of violence. This is not the issue. Only recently, has this Principal of an Individual, their Rights and Freedom been defined. It has followed with movements for the behaviour we call Human, resulting in acts of non-violence only recently having great success. If Turkey wants to be identified with this effort internationally, it must accommodate, then it must resolve to reform the elements of their politic which have the appearance of Intolerance, and which cause to many in its diversity so much suffering. The age of Nationalism has changed since Napoleon III, yet the identity in a language has been corrupted once again to sustain an ethnicity in its exclusivity. La France, and French are not the same, just as Turkey and Turkish are different. Ataturk like Napoleon unified his country by giving its citizens an identity to the land with their sense of equality, fraternity, and personal Liberty intact. They could remain German or Kurd, and they could be French and Turks, unlike the vision which is promoted today.

myanswer is a bicommunalbizonal model for Cyprus which can be emulated in Turkey, and in Jerusalem because it allows for respect and cooperation, by promoting the diversity of people as persons while, as individuals, their efforts sustain the Universal efforts of our betterment.

i don't find this enosis question too complicated. another Brit, lord byron was the genesis of this thought with the creation of Modern Greece, it goes back longer, and it remains complex, but in the context of Cyprus, the overwhelming majority being Grecophone, it was very much like a final frontier. enosis happened quietly and quite naturally the first of this year; that dream was realised, and we have become a frontier of Europe. umit and OP, if you love this island it is time to end the proxy war. tell each other you are ashamed of these relics from the past and you want to change. please read my proposal, i am for what OP stands for because i know what is right, a Unitary State, [(and i am for Turkish Cypriots being recognised as cofounders) because Cyprus is/was Turcophone as much as it is Grecophone]: this Solution suits the world, providing for an end to the isolation which grew from Intolerance in a manner which is Just and it is seen to be for Justice; as it suits us, the dwellers of this ancient land, as its Stewards, which may be mostly "Greek" and "Turk", but having needs more than this simple vision of things.

after all we are Cypriots, this island's dwellers: Cyprus is an island.

[zan]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

Bir, don't you think you are asking too much from a mentally castrated and /or spiritually sterilized person?[/quote]

Are you trying to praise Zan or criticise him? Stick to simple English my friend. It's obvious its not your mother tongue and trying too hard can sometimes embarrass you

Huh???? Did I miss something???? I see no post from Kifeas,where did you get this quote????

You joining in the sabotage as well...I am very disappointed!!!

[zan]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????

Let me put it another way,Zan...Can you think of any reason or any scenario,back in the 40s or 50s which might justify the GC wish for Enosis???
Forget about the effect on the TCs...Just try to put yourself in the shoes of an "ordinary" GC -the man in the street as the English call them-and see what you come up with...The key is don't worry about the TC point of view,just try to see it solely from a GC point of view...

Why don't you just stop pratting around...I given you the scenarios.....FFS...First you claim to know better than every Turk alive and now you are cornering the market on empathy.......Give it up gardas....You haven't got a clue as to what the TCs want let alone the GCs........Your interpretation of empathy is arse licking and a change of who you are.....The Turks did you no harm...It was just one person and now you are a racist.

Now that I have got that off my chest...Do you want to offer an answer to your own simple question or are you just farting in the wind...

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????

Let me put it another way,Zan...Can you think of any reason or any scenario,back in the 40s or 50s which might justify the GC wish for Enosis???
Forget about the effect on the TCs...Just try to put yourself in the shoes of an "ordinary" GC -the man in the street as the English call them-and see what you come up with...The key is don't worry about the TC point of view,just try to see it solely from a GC point of view...

Why don't you just stop pratting around...I given you the scenarios.....FFS...First you claim to know better than every Turk alive and now you are cornering the market on empathy.......Give it up gardas....You haven't got a clue as to what the TCs want let alone the GCs........Your interpretation of empathy is arse licking and a change of who you are.....The Turks did you no harm...It was just one person and now you are a racist.

Now that I have got that off my chest...Do you want to offer an answer to your own simple question or are you just farting in the wind...

Never mind,Zan...It was you who said you knew where the GCs came from,and you didn't lack empathy...So I wanted to find out what exactly it was you understood and empathised with..But what the hell...With the likes of Oracle spewing out her special brand of poison everywhere,what does it matter if you understand and empathise with the GCs or not???? I am indeed farting and pissing in the wind...

[zan]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????

Let me put it another way,Zan...Can you think of any reason or any scenario,back in the 40s or 50s which might justify the GC wish for Enosis???
Forget about the effect on the TCs...Just try to put yourself in the shoes of an "ordinary" GC -the man in the street as the English call them-and see what you come up with...The key is don't worry about the TC point of view,just try to see it solely from a GC point of view...

Why don't you just stop pratting around...I given you the scenarios.....FFS...First you claim to know better than every Turk alive and now you are cornering the market on empathy.......Give it up gardas....You haven't got a clue as to what the TCs want let alone the GCs........Your interpretation of empathy is arse licking and a change of who you are.....The Turks did you no harm...It was just one person and now you are a racist.

Now that I have got that off my chest...Do you want to offer an answer to your own simple question or are you just farting in the wind...

Never mind,Zan...It was you who said you knew where the GCs came from,and you didn't lack empathy...So I wanted to find out what exactly it was you understood and empathised with..But what the hell...With the likes of Oracle spewing out her special brand of poison everywhere,what does it matter if you understand and empathise with the GCs or not???? I am indeed farting and pissing in the wind...

Well you should try not taking the piss next time you want to talk to me. Your superior attitude had to grate sometime or another. This is the way we talk to one another on this forum when we have no respect for one another or the irony is made very clear...You are just being smug.

[miltiades]

Well mate Bir is respected by all , how about you with your extreme fanatical approach to the Cyprus problem , who apart from those sharing your distorted views has any respect for you , I know Eric and BigAl no doubt , and maybe Oracle too !!!

[Oracle]

Never mind,Zan...It was you who said you knew where the GCs came from,and you didn't lack empathy...So I wanted to find out what exactly it was you understood and empathised with..But what the hell...With the likes of Oracle spewing out her special brand of poison everywhere,what does it matter if you understand and empathise with the GCs or not???? I am indeed farting and pissing in the wind...

Bir you are a good guy ... but professing empathy and the wearing of the "shoe on the other foot" is not based on sound practical considerations.

Regarding the reasoning behind posting the History of the Seljuk by Aristakes ...

It is a comparative on how far the Turks have progressed ... surely the positive element of this thread... with a PRIMARY purpose to show the hypocrisy with those that take pride in remembering only chosen soundbites of their history, without recalling the evil bits which hurt others along the way.

Merely slotted in to further the debate of perceived bad behaviour by the Turks, as asserted by shah's earlier quote, and contrast the civilising effects of time.

Birkibrisli you and I have had a difference of opinion on this "empathy" stance for a while ....

I have gone along and played the "wear the shoe on the other foot" empathy game .... and discovered it fails, and falls far short of reality.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus16130.html

This was one of those little experiments which led to the conclusion:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=70

So Bir, like a revenge seeker, clouded by your judgement, you chose to label me of spewing poison (on the basis I posted History ) .... without debating the issues.

Clearly not practising your dictat!

My stance in doing the right thing, is to avoid obfuscation by thinking one can actually empathise ..... in fact to even attempt to put yourself in the other's shoes! Because you will end up with the fallacy that you can see "The Other Side".

This is dangerous since clearly you cannot know all the life experiences which have led to that person's being, who they are, and how they feel. You are not shaped in the same way.

It leads to confidence in a false belief that you understand something that you may not. You have not experienced everything the other person has.

Indeed such thinking also stalls the mind, and prevents proper formulation of solutions.

A less arrogant way of doing the right thing is simply to ask .... "Do I want that done to me?" ... if it hurts too much... don't do it ... if you can cope ... then so should the other.

It's more respectful, to treat the other on the basis of how you feel, than treat them on the basis of how you think / empathise that they feel .... Subtle!

That way you are more likely to do the right thing.

You can't please everybody ... so please yourself ... BUT on the basis of your ability to cope and survive being served that way.

Mathematical reciprocity falls into this way of thinking and is practiced by many species not just Man ... because it does not require the ability to empathise.

But the outdated Hippie-empathy thinking has a lot of followers because of being around longer as a "nice" idea ... so you dear Bir have a lot of sympathisers, whereas I, trying to break new ground create more dust.

The major draw back of "empathy" is that it stifles progress because of Political Correctness ... hence the reason why you objected so strongly at my posting the painful Historical reminders of what we would rather forget ...

This type of silencing from "hurt" emotions is non-productive when solutions are being sought.

[zan]

So by asking "If I were a Turk I would hate what Oracle is doing" and then going ahead and doing it anyway is your style of thinking......You don't post history woman. You post hurt on a plate and seem to revel in it.

I like Birs idea on how to behave but he seems to have trouble adhering to it. If you put on the cloak of super hero... then you had better be up for the part!!!!