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Saturday Night Light Discussion .....

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:00 pm

unitedwestand wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this... :roll:


Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like.... :?:


Bir, don't you think you are asking too much from a mentally castrated and /or spiritually sterilized person?[/quote]

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Are you trying to praise Zan or criticise him? Stick to simple English my friend. It's obvious its not your mother tongue and trying too hard can sometimes embarrass you :lol: :lol:


Huh???? Did I miss something???? I see no post from Kifeas,where did you get this quote????
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:07 pm

zan wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this... :roll:


Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like.... :?:


I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????


Let me put it another way,Zan...Can you think of any reason or any scenario,back in the 40s or 50s which might justify the GC wish for Enosis???
Forget about the effect on the TCs...Just try to put yourself in the shoes of an "ordinary" GC -the man in the street as the English call them-and see what you come up with...The key is don't worry about the TC point of view,just try to see it solely from a GC point of view...
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Postby Eric dayi » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:59 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this... :roll:


Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like.... :?:


I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????


Let me put it another way,Zan...Can you think of any reason or any scenario,back in the 40s or 50s which might justify the GC wish for Enosis???
Forget about the effect on the TCs...Just try to put yourself in the shoes of an "ordinary" GC -the man in the street as the English call them-and see what you come up with...The key is don't worry about the TC point of view,just try to see it solely from a GC point of view...



Jesus! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Postby unitedwestand » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:18 pm

BirKibrisli wrote:
unitedwestand wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this... :roll:


Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like.... :?:


Bir, don't you think you are asking too much from a mentally castrated and /or spiritually sterilized person?[/quote]

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Are you trying to praise Zan or criticise him? Stick to simple English my friend. It's obvious its not your mother tongue and trying too hard can sometimes embarrass you :lol: :lol:


Huh???? Did I miss something???? I see no post from Kifeas,where did you get this quote????


That's a very good point. He posted this around half an hour before my post. This is very serious, no member has the ability, or should have the ability to totally remove a post. This means he is either the administrator or is on very good terms with the administrator.

As you can see, I have a copy of his post.

Whats going on Administrator?
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Re: same old stuff

Postby repulsewarrior » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:01 pm

Fireplace wrote:as a new member, i wonder if it would be better to stop insulting each other, use a more construtive way of thought, as calling people idiots really is not on.
if this energy was used better you could perhaps enjoy the day, and moreso the future. :!:


welcomeFireplace, i will call you tsaki. Keep upyour spirit, friends like you are few it seems, and more are needed.
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Postby Oracle » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:06 pm

unitedwestand wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
unitedwestand wrote:
Kifeas wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this... :roll:


Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like.... :?:


Bir, don't you think you are asking too much from a mentally castrated and /or spiritually sterilized person?[/quote]

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Are you trying to praise Zan or criticise him? Stick to simple English my friend. It's obvious its not your mother tongue and trying too hard can sometimes embarrass you :lol: :lol:


Huh???? Did I miss something???? I see no post from Kifeas,where did you get this quote????


That's a very good point. He posted this around half an hour before my post. This is very serious, no member has the ability, or should have the ability to totally remove a post. This means he is either the administrator or is on very good terms with the administrator.

As you can see, I have a copy of his post.

Whats going on Administrator?


Your mess of a quote is dubious at the very least but if it was addressed to Zan ... he was around at that time (being nasty to me on another thread :roll: ) ... maybe being considered a "personal remark" by the more sensitive, perhaps Zan asked for it to be deleted.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:36 pm

Eric dayi wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:
BirKibrisli wrote:
zan wrote:Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this... :roll:


Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like.... :?:


I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????


Let me put it another way,Zan...Can you think of any reason or any scenario,back in the 40s or 50s which might justify the GC wish for Enosis???
Forget about the effect on the TCs...Just try to put yourself in the shoes of an "ordinary" GC -the man in the street as the English call them-and see what you come up with...The key is don't worry about the TC point of view,just try to see it solely from a GC point of view...



Jesus! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


It is OK,Eric....It is only an exercise,to see if Zan can really empathise with our GC compatriots....Feel free to do the same exercise yourself....
I'd love to see the result... :wink: :)
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Postby Oracle » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:44 pm

Some early Turkish barbaric ancetry to see how far they have progressed.

Accounts by Aristakes the Armenian, describing events from around 1000AD when the Turks first came to Anatolia.
http://rbedrosian.com/a1.htm


But they left behind them a scene more pitiful and lamentable than it had been before. The death-agonies were of many types: for some who had fallen [75] [fatally wounded] were still alive. From thirst their tongues had dried up, and with weak and soft voices they sought to quench their thirst, but there was no one to give them drink. Others who were terribly wounded, and could not make sounds, were breathing violently. Others whose throats had been slit but were still alive were emitting gurgling sounds in pain. Yet others, who had been badly wounded, were scraping the ground with their feet and clawing at it with their fingernails. There were others whose appearance was so frightful that the very rocks and other inanimate objects were moved to lamentation and sighing. For when the infidels were removing captives from the mountain, they took the children from their parents' embrace, and threw them to the ground, and [the Saljuqs'] place of encampment was swarming with them. Some [of the children] had died when they fell against rocks. The sides of some of them had torn open and their intestines poured out onto the ground. As for those remaining alive, what ear could bear their crying? Those [children] capable of walking were moving about here and there looking for their mothers, and the mountains reverberated with the loudness of their crying. Those who [76] were [to young to be] steady on their feet, were crying as they crawled along on their knees. Those who were even younger than they, thumped the ground with their feet, and, weakened through crawling they could scarcely breath. With their piteous sounds and unceasing cries they resembled lambs newly separated from their mothers, who, being impatient by nature, angrily struck out this way and that, offending the very air with their bleating and weighing heavily upon the listeners' ears.


how suddenly they fell to the ground and tumbled over, struck by the enemies' swords, as if struck by hail. Add to this the number of children who were taken from their mothers' embraces and hurled to the ground, who sought their mothers with their baby sighs. But the parents, cudgled, were quickly separated from them. What heart of stone would not be straitened by tears, hearing these numerous and varied [recitations] of evil? Virgins fell dishonored, newly-married women were separated from their men and led into slavery. In one single moment the country, which had been crowded with [97] people, like a densely populated city, became an uninhabited wasteland. [As for the people], they were either killed by the sword, or taken captive. Oh Christ, for your forgiveness at that time; Oh the wickedness that befell us! How bitter was the death we died!


One could see there the grief and calamity of every age of humankind. For children were ravished from the embraces of their mothers and mercilessly hurled against rocks, while the mothers drenched them with tears and blood. Father and son were slain by the same sword. The elderly, the young, priests and deacons also died by the same sword. The city became filled from one end to the other with bodies of the slain, and [the bodies of the slain] became a road. From the countless multitude of the slain, and from the corpses, that great stream which passed by the city became dyed with blood.


Some [the Saljuqs] seized, brought forward and beheaded with the sword. They died a double death. More bitter than death was the scintillating of swords above them, then the death verdict. Swords in hand they came upon some, fell upon them like beasts, pierced their hearts and killed them instantly. As for the stout and corpulent, they were made to go down on their knees, and their hands were secured down by stakes. Then the skin together with the nails was pulled up on both sides over the forearm and shoulder as far as the tips of the second hand, forcibly removed, and [the Saljuqs] fashioned bowstrings out of them. Oh how bitter this narration is!

As for the presbyters and clerics, what ear could bear the unique tortures to which they were subjected? Their skin was flayed from the breast upward, over the face, and [g109] then twisted around the head. And only after so torturing them did [the Saljuqs] kill them. Who has heard of more bitter, unbelievable tortures? We have not encountered any in the martyrdoms of the saints.
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Postby Oracle » Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:49 pm

Aristakes wrote:
Their skin was flayed from the breast upward, over the face, and [g109] then twisted around the head. And only after so torturing them did [the Saljuqs] kill them.



Bragadino, the Venetian leader of the Famagusta defence, was flayed (skinned) alive too. His nose and ears were cut off first. This happened in 1571. So skinning alive was part of Turkish "culture" for at least 500 years.

It is recorded by an eyewitness that Bragadino died when the skinner's knife reached his navel!

Famagusta's surrender was not unconditioned. It was provided for the surviving defenders and the civilians so willing to move to Candia. However the Turks did not show the same basic respect towards the unlucky Bragadin. After painful humiliations, he was put by the Turks trough a most excruciating torment: being flayed alive at the docks. Bragadin's quartered body was then distributed as a war trophy among the army whereas his skin, stuffed with straw and sewn, was revested in his military insignia and exhibited riding an ox in a mocking procession amidst the streets of Famagusta. The macabre trophy, together with the severed heads of general Alvise Martinengo, Gianantonio Querini and castellan Andrea Bragadin, was hoisted upon the masthead pennant of the personal galley of the Ottoman commander, Amir al-bahr Mustafa Pasha, to be brought to Constantinople as a gift for Sultan Selim II.

Bragadin's skin was later purloined from the Constantinople arsenal in 1580 at the hands of the young Venetian seaman, Girolamo Polidori, who brought it back to Venice. The skin was preserved first in the church of San Gregorio, then in that of the Santi Giovanni e Paolo, where it still is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Antonio_Bragadin
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Postby umit07 » Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:21 pm

Yeah Oracle all the more reason NOT to want to live with us!! Count yourself lucky then.
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