Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I am not misrepresenting you Bir...You are doing that just nicely all by yourself......You need to get a more balanced view of what the WORLD is like and how the people of the EU got where they are today and how they are misusing that power on a daily basis before condemning your own.....We ran away from Cyprus for fear of being killed and or starving to death........Laws were put into place to prevent that but the so called inventors of democracy seem to use it only when it suits them and sod the rest of us. Their kind of democracy can kiss my ass.......Or real Cypriot if you like.....

I mean...Look what GR wrote as his answer to undemocratic ways of the GCs...

We are not writing well-balanced newspaper articles here,Zan...
We are talking from the heart,jumping in where we have something personal to say about a topic...You are making this mistake...you think that if i criticise our side,i must be approving everything that the other side is doing on that subject. That is not so...You are right to think that I am concentrating mostly on our mistakes. That is intentional. We need all the diversity we can get on this Forum..We will never get anywhere if we all just talked up our own side while putting down the other side all the time...We have a long way to go in accepting self-criticism...But only when we can see the faults of our own side,and can talk about them openly and honestly can we expect to see the other side's point of view...
This is essential if we are ever going to find a compromise solution...When you criticise something or someone,it does not necessarily mean you hate them or everything about them...You could be loving them with a passion and want them to better themselves or not to make mistakes...Like parents who sometimes have to criticise or punish their children...

There is a place to practice these thoughts and then there is the Cyprob....


And please...Spare me the lesson once more that you have more empathy than me.......I fully understand where the GCs are coming from....But as you do with the Turks, I do with the GCs...Tell them where they are going wrong.

Empahy is more than Understanding,Zan...But since you said "please" I will not proceed to give you a lesson on it... If you fully understand where the GCs are coming from,tell me why they wanted to have Enosis with Greece??? And do you think they were right???

Who are you asking about...Perhaps the everyday guy on the street..Or maybe the business men...How about the politicians......Which version would you like.......In the end..They were all wrong.

They were all wrong...Well that was nice and simple...
It shows you really understand where the GCs are coming from,and you have great empathy for them...We can let this matter rest now,shall we???

You ask a simple question and...........If you haven't paid much attention to all the things I have written about a thousand times then don't expect much back except the insult you give me....Now...do you want to be specific or shall we just play the guessing game you started.......It seems that you think that this question is simple???

So you are not going to offer anything on this Bir?????

I though we were going to let this matter rest!!!

But if you insist...okey,tell me why the average GC wanted to have Enosis
back in the good old days...Remember you are showing empathy...

[zan]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

[unitedwestand]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

Bir, don't you think you are asking too much from a mentally castrated and /or spiritually sterilized person?[/quote]

Are you trying to praise Zan or criticise him? Stick to simple English my friend. It's obvious its not your mother tongue and trying too hard can sometimes embarrass you

[repulsewarrior]

...read the whole thread, i like it so far, very interesting.

what can I add...

consider my proposal as a template for Turkey's reform:

bi-zonal could mean that ethnic majorities can have the right to sustain themselves by providing the services to its electors as equals while the State regulates a minimum level of service which must be met on this land for which they are Sovereign. Bi-communal means a State which recognises, on Internal matters, that its citizens act on its leadership, as persons.

...indeed, getting taxpayers close to their money means less chance of corruption, however the cost in having several layers of government is high, from it at least dwellers keep the closeness they have for their land, in a country they have an identity in, which is larger.

Turkey's problem is not that there are so many "idiots", but that it is as a power a master unrivaled at the politic of plunder which now threatens the existence of all things living on this planet. It is never the masses, it is the few, like in any society, who gain their influence by better managing their time, through their illwill and through intolerance for this Ignorance. What Turkey lacks is what a Cyprus Solution offers. I hope that its natural conditions are still recognisable by this leadership, C. and T., I hope that they are Cypriots and that their aim is to provide a Solution whose distinction is as a model 'bicommunal', and now 'bizonal', something which the world can emulate.

[zan]

Sorry to be so long on this but I am also cleaning and making some improvised repairs on my Jacuzzi while I go back and forth to the Forum.....



Before we start....I just want to know what you want from me as far as empathy goes...Do i forget about Practicality or self preservation or common sense and only think of the GCs as we go through this??? Because if thats the case then Ten hail Maries and a dozen manamous should do the trick and save us a lot of time...


Besides that...I asked you to define what you want to talk about in this...

Well...Empathy at its basic level is the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes and thinking and feeling like they do....You said you understood where the GCs came from...So I asked you the most fundamental question regarding our conflict...I know it is not a simple question...Try going back to the late 40s or early 50s perhaps, and see if you can think and feel like an average GC regarding Enosis...Then tell me what it is like....

I asked you who you are talking about...The normal people or the politicians or the church.....Who.....The word ENOSIS means a different thing to each one. It is a sacred word for the Church in which its only aim is to unify and endorse the religion. It is a means for the politicians to get the Turks and TCs off the island. It is a slogan for the ordinary people that they swallowed because of the first two.....Which one do you want me to be. That is the question????

[miltiades]

Zan , you seem to be absolutely aghast that 82 % of the Cypriot people ignored the wishes of the 18% and fought for ENOSIS ( Quite wrongly in my opinion ) , the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people had every right to nurture aspirations encouraged mostly by the Church .
Here is a short passage from Ibrahim Aziz's "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981 ""

"""When the armed struggle started, the British had at their disposal thousands of men and could even increase their existing numbers to put down the EOKA struggle. This they did not do, but they formed instead the well known Auxiliary
Corps. The ordinary Turkish Cypriots, who did not realize where the British were leading them (since their leadership did not warn them, rather it encouraged them), hastened to reinforce this Auxiliary Corps thinking only of securing
a living. Thus, the Greek Cypriots, who thought that they were waging a holy struggle against the British, found themselves facing the Turkish Cypriots. In this way
the British started submitting to the Turkish community their plans for partition."
Ibrahim Aziz, "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981 ""

[miltiades]

Here is what Dr.Kuchuk had to say :

Dr Kuchuk takes up the story with an account of how Riza Vurushkan came to Cyprus from Turkey to lead TMT.
"Year 1957...in order to give daily reports to Ankara...and to secure aid from Turkey I used to go to Ankara very frequently. During one of these visits, the late Prime Minister of Turkey, Adnan Menderes, introduced Riza Vurushkan to me...Later I met him at the office of a Lieutenant General and talked with him there. During our meeting it was decided that Vurushkan should come to
Cyprus as "civilian adviser". He arrived in Cyprus under an assumed name and settled down here."
(Halkin Sesi, 16.2.1979)

TMT incited anti-Greek riots and tried to force Turkish Cypriot workers to establish separate trade unions.

Murder, arson and intimidation were the means that TMT used in order to prove that Greek and Turkish Cypriots could not live together. The victims were trade unionists, journalists and ordinary Turkish Cypriots who resisted TMT's call.

After the signing of the Zurich and London Agreements in 1959, which led to the independence of Cyprus, TMT continued its clandestine activities in the cause of dividing Cyprus, and was to continue until 1984 as Mr Ozgur was to
reveal.

In October, 1959, seven months after the signing of the agreements on Cyprus independence, the British mine-sweeper HMS Burmaston intercepted the Turkish
boat "Deniz" as it was attempting to deliver a shipment of arms to TMT in Cyprus.

Despite TMT terrorism, the mass of Greek and Turkish Cypriots citizens entered hopefully into the period of independence.



Some TMT attacks against Turkish Cypriots, May-July, 1958



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- 22.5.58: Murder attempt against Ahmet Sadi, Director of the Turkish Office of the Pancyprian Workers Federation. In order to save his life, Sadi left Cyprus soon after and settled in England.

- 24.5.48: Murder of Fazil Onder, Chief Editor of the weekly newspaper "Inkilapci".

- 29.5.58: Murder of Ahmet Yahya, committee member of the progressive Turkish Cypriot Athletic-Cultural Centre.

- 5.6.58: Murder attempt against Hasan Ali, member of a Construction Workers Committee of the Pancyprian Labour Federation.

- 30.6.58: Murder of Ahmet Ibrahim, a barber from Limassol, because he had friendly relations with Greek-Cypriots and expressed himself in favour of Greek-Turkish cooperation.

- 3.7.58: Murder attempt against Arif Hulusi Barudi. He was working in a business owned by a Greek Cypriot. Before the attempt he had received a threatening letter demanding that he leave his job.

[zan]

Zan , you seem to be absolutely aghast that 82 % of the Cypriot people ignored the wishes of the 18% and fought for ENOSIS ( Quite wrongly in my opinion ) , the overwhelming majority of the Cypriot people had every right to nurture aspirations encouraged mostly by the Church .
Here is a short passage from Ibrahim Aziz's "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981 ""

"""When the armed struggle started, the British had at their disposal thousands of men and could even increase their existing numbers to put down the EOKA struggle. This they did not do, but they formed instead the well known Auxiliary
Corps. The ordinary Turkish Cypriots, who did not realize where the British were leading them (since their leadership did not warn them, rather it encouraged them), hastened to reinforce this Auxiliary Corps thinking only of securing
a living. Thus, the Greek Cypriots, who thought that they were waging a holy struggle against the British, found themselves facing the Turkish Cypriots. In this way
the British started submitting to the Turkish community their plans for partition."
Ibrahim Aziz, "The Historical Course of the Turkish Cypriot Community", 1981 ""

They had no right at all given the history of Cyprus and that between Greece and Turkey with other similar islands....No more right than the TC wanting to unite with Turkey.

If the Brits had not been there then the TCs would have put up resistance anyway..Turkey would have joined in and there would have been war on a larger scale. What Turkey did was trust the UK to keep this illegal and immoral act at bay.

You cannot get away from the fact that Greece saw Turkey as being weak at the time and chanced its hand at taking over the island. The Church, with it's own agenda helped. Stop trying to blame everyone but the Greeks. For once take the blame for screwing Cyprus.

[Fireplace]

as a new member, i wonder if it would be better to stop insulting each other, use a more construtive way of thought, as calling people idiots really is not on.
if this energy was used better you could perhaps enjoy the day, and moreso the future.