Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

COMING less than two weeks after a three-day visit to the north of the island by the Turkish military Chief of Staff Yasar Buyukanit, the arrival in Cyprus yesterday of the Commander of the Turkish Army Ilker Basbug has raised questions about the Turkish military’s view of a recent thaw in relations between the Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities.

The answer is blindingly simple...The Generals want to remind Talat and the world who is calling the shots in any possible solution...The message is,"don't raise your hopes too high,don't think you are going to come to an agreement the Turkish Army would not approve beforehand!"...


http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=38614

Welcome back Bir.

It's funny how I don't hear all the NeoPartionist defending the Generals positions. They have all lost their tongues it seems. It must be the shock of being embarrassed and shown to be liars by the Turkish Generals. Since I've been on the forum, the NeoPartitonist kept on complaining why PapaD should deal with Talat and not Turkey, because it was Talat who was in charge and the only person to talk to. Well, it has been proven beyond any doubt, that Talat does what he is told. The TC's do not need a "President" for them to negotiate any peace with the RoC, when even a ONE star General will do. So, all you NeoPartitionist, I do not want to hear anymore crap about how Talat is in charge. For the amount of "good" he does for the peace process, I would start charging him rent for his lodging at the "Presidential Palace" or has the "TRNC" become a welfare state for the FAT CATS.??

Here is the funny part of the Generals visit. They have been given the "Red Carpet" treatment. Lets not forget Gul was there also not so long ago. The funny part is, that it is announced in advance to make it like an official state visit. Why.?? If the generals want to visit their troops in a foreign land, what's with the big announcement. He can just fly in or take the ferry, or come on one of the assault ships, and see his troops. They do not have any elected political positions, so why are the "TRNC's" elected officials are tripping all over themselves to have their pictures taken with the Generals. I can understand with Gul, but the Generals.?? It's not as if he has come to decorate his troops for bravery and valour in the battle fields on the front line.

Well, it is more than clear, that Christofias should ignore Talat and just talk with the Generals, and from what they are asking, which is no different than the Annan Plan 2004, then I do not see any reason to continue talking about a settlement. It sounds more like "take it or leave it" by the Generals. But my guess is, Christofias is not going to fall for that trap, to put the whole repeat AP up for another referendum, so that it can be voted down by the GC's, so that the "TRNC" can claim the "high road" victory to put the focus on the GC's for refusing to have peace once again, so that the "TRNC" can try to get International support for lifting the embargoes. I believe, Christofias will put the focus on the Turkish Military as being the obstacle for peace by not allowing the TC's to act in their own best interest, and end the talks.

The Turkish Military will be blamed for the failures of the talks as being the occupying force, which is how the International community sees it as, despite what the Generals are saying, about being only a "Peace Force". The whole impetus will be put on the Generals and their demands being the reason why the talks have failed, and Talat will walk away with a Egg-Fu-Young on his face for being an impotent leader. Next talks will be when the Turkish Politicians in Turkey are in charge and want to cut a deal with the RoC to let them into the EU. As to when that may be, is any one's guess. In the meantime, the South goes about it's business developing, while the North continue to struggle economically and paying Talat's rent on his "Presidential Palace" for nothing.

Of course, I would like to be proven wrong with my assessments and with my above comments, and that Talat is more than I have given him credit (lack of) for.

Thanks for the welcome back,Kikapu...It is good to be back even though nothing seems to have changed during my absence...

What you and I say about who is calling the shots in Cyprus is absolutely true. Even Blind Freddy (whoever he was!) can see that. The Neopartitionists as you call them can see it too. But they cannot afford to admit it...They feel they have no other choice but put a brave face,and keep repeating their mantra "Our way or Partition"...Not that they really want partition,but because they think the GCs must not get their way in anything,they must suffer for their past misdeeds...And for the present ones...Not recognition of the trnc,isolation,insisting on the removal of the Turkish troops,and the power of guarantee etc...They fail to see that they are the willing participants of their own demise as a distinct community.
Turkish Cypriots will go down in history as the only people who have actively participated in their own cultural and identity genocide...There is only one thing that will save the TCs from this fate...If the GCs invite them to return to the 1960 constitution,adapt it to the present,and get on with building one nation of Cypriots in which they will play their own part and find their own place in the sun...I am totally convinced now that there will never be an agreement as long as the Turkish army are calling the shots...
Don't forget that the Army is acting on behalf of the Deep State,which is more powerful than the present AKP government,which might not be there for too long in any case...but I am not holding my breath that Christofias will have the balls to invite the TCs to return. He is guided by the same mentality which says "the TCs must pay for all their misdeeds of the past and present"...A pity really...The March of
Folly which I talked about elsewhere keeps on keeping on in our beloved country...

Hello Bir, Glad to see your posts again.

Bir, you are right, we are not offering the TCs a return to the 1960 RoC! Do you know why? Because already -since 1977, we are offering them something even better for themselves, and even more difficult for us, than the 1960 RoC! However, even though we are already offering them something better than what you personally ask, they refuse to take it, because they aim and insist at something even more lucrative for themselves and even less tolerable for us!

Now you say, why don’t we offer them a return to the 1960 RoC? How on earth will they accept something less than what we already offer, if this better one that we already offer, is being refused for the hope and the sake of an even better, more maximal option?

[DT.]

birkibrisli,
my aim is here to show the forum members what is the positions of the sides at the present condition . it looks you have missed what Disi leader and Soyer said as well.
it looks the solution will be based on Bi-communal , bi-zonal state solution . Guarantees also be on the table . so far Yakavu and Nami agreed on 23 working groups . Soon we will learn the groups content as well . Both sides have to inform their public kibrisli. hiding or hijacking the agreements will not work . at the end we can have referendum again .
they have to tell the people truth otherwise we will have second annan plan shock.

23 working groups????? My God!!!! How long do they think we can wait for a solution???

This reminds me of a cheeky definition I read somewhere....A working-group is the meeting of some self-important people who,singly,can do nothing,but together can decide that nothing can be done...

I do hope they prove the definition wrong...

below was short news at 2 pm today.
SENIOR AIDES OF TWO LEADERS IN CYPRUS MEET AGAIN AT LEDRA PALACE HOTEL.
Senior aides of the two leaders in Cyprus will meet again this afternoon to continue their fork on the establishment of experts’ working groups and technical committees.
Ozdil Nami and Greek Cypriot Leader Dimitris Christofias’ adviser Yorgos Yakovu will meet at 3 o’clock at the Ledra Palace Hotel in the UN-controlled buffer zone in Lefkosa.
The two men aim to conclude their work on the setting of the agendas of the working groups and technical committees by the end of the week-end.

Somehow I don't feel entirely safe with George "I just want to sleep" Iacovou handling our side.

DT, we turkified his name as well..... now time is coming for your name ..... your one will be ....... ??????

Dementia Tremensis

DenkTash?

Back to the subject discussed by Kiks, Bir and Kifeas...I honestly believe that prior to the AP when everyone was kept in the dark about what exactly was discussed and what the hell was a BBF, many people including my grandparents thought that we were constantly trying to convince the Turkish side to return to 1960.

It was a tremendous shock to a lot of older (less educated) people when they found out that the plan discussed will mean a different Cyprus to the 1960 Cyprus.

[denizaksulu]

birkibrisli,
my aim is here to show the forum members what is the positions of the sides at the present condition . it looks you have missed what Disi leader and Soyer said as well.
it looks the solution will be based on Bi-communal , bi-zonal state solution . Guarantees also be on the table . so far Yakavu and Nami agreed on 23 working groups . Soon we will learn the groups content as well . Both sides have to inform their public kibrisli. hiding or hijacking the agreements will not work . at the end we can have referendum again .
they have to tell the people truth otherwise we will have second annan plan shock.

23 working groups????? My God!!!! How long do they think we can wait for a solution???

This reminds me of a cheeky definition I read somewhere....A working-group is the meeting of some self-important people who,singly,can do nothing,but together can decide that nothing can be done...

I do hope they prove the definition wrong...

below was short news at 2 pm today.
SENIOR AIDES OF TWO LEADERS IN CYPRUS MEET AGAIN AT LEDRA PALACE HOTEL.
Senior aides of the two leaders in Cyprus will meet again this afternoon to continue their fork on the establishment of experts’ working groups and technical committees.
Ozdil Nami and Greek Cypriot Leader Dimitris Christofias’ adviser Yorgos Yakovu will meet at 3 o’clock at the Ledra Palace Hotel in the UN-controlled buffer zone in Lefkosa.
The two men aim to conclude their work on the setting of the agendas of the working groups and technical committees by the end of the week-end.

Somehow I don't feel entirely safe with George "I just want to sleep" Iacovou handling our side.

DT, we turkified his name as well..... now time is coming for your name ..... your one will be ....... ??????

Dementia Tremensis

DenkTash?

Back to the subject discussed by Kiks, Bir and Kifeas...I honestly believe that prior to the AP when everyone was kept in the dark about what exactly was discussed and what the hell was a BBF, many people including my grandparents thought that we were constantly trying to convince the Turkish side to return to 1960.

It was a tremendous shock to a lot of older (less educated) people when they found out that the plan discussed will mean a different Cyprus to the 1960 Cyprus.

Ofcourse its different. You cannot put a baby back in the womb from wence it came. Oracle might try. But doomed to fail. The new demography will have to be taken in to account. Preferably all the settlers, North and south taken in to account and no 'bull-s...... g about legalities.

[Get Real!]

Ofcourse its different. You cannot put a baby back in the womb from wence it came. Oracle might try. But doomed to fail. The new demography will have to be taken in to account. Preferably all the settlers, North and south taken in to account and no 'bull-s...... g about legalities.

I can’t agree with that. Turkey didn’t give a toss about demographics when she invaded in 1974 and promptly expelled 200,000 odd Greek Cypriots form the northern part of an island that they inhabited since 8,000BC, so if and when such time comes the GCs should have no reservations whatsoever expelling them and thus treating them in kind.

[denizaksulu]

Ofcourse its different. You cannot put a baby back in the womb from wence it came. Oracle might try. But doomed to fail. The new demography will have to be taken in to account. Preferably all the settlers, North and south taken in to account and no 'bull-s...... g about legalities.

I can’t agree with that. Turkey didn’t give a toss about demographics when she invaded in 1974 and promptly expelled 200,000 odd Greek Cypriots form the northern part of an island that they inhabited since 8,000BC, so if and when such time comes the GCs should have no reservations whatsoever expelling them and thus treating them in kind.

In that case you have no grounds to complain. One side is trying to redress the actions of the past, the other is intent on revenge. You have your answer to the 'Statur Quo@ GR.

[Get Real!]

Ofcourse its different. You cannot put a baby back in the womb from wence it came. Oracle might try. But doomed to fail. The new demography will have to be taken in to account. Preferably all the settlers, North and south taken in to account and no 'bull-s...... g about legalities.

I can’t agree with that. Turkey didn’t give a toss about demographics when she invaded in 1974 and promptly expelled 200,000 odd Greek Cypriots form the northern part of an island that they inhabited since 8,000BC, so if and when such time comes the GCs should have no reservations whatsoever expelling them and thus treating them in kind.

In that case you have no grounds to complain. One side is trying to redress the actions of the past, the other is intent on revenge. You have your answer to the 'Statur Quo@ GR.

Who EXACTLY is "trying to redress the actions of the past" do inform!

[denizaksulu]

Ofcourse its different. You cannot put a baby back in the womb from wence it came. Oracle might try. But doomed to fail. The new demography will have to be taken in to account. Preferably all the settlers, North and south taken in to account and no 'bull-s...... g about legalities.

I can’t agree with that. Turkey didn’t give a toss about demographics when she invaded in 1974 and promptly expelled 200,000 odd Greek Cypriots form the northern part of an island that they inhabited since 8,000BC, so if and when such time comes the GCs should have no reservations whatsoever expelling them and thus treating them in kind.

In that case you have no grounds to complain. One side is trying to redress the actions of the past, the other is intent on revenge. You have your answer to the 'Statur Quo@ GR.

Who EXACTLY is "trying to redress the actions of the past" do inform!

GR, Tpapa is gone and yo are still playing his games. Or is he still pulling the string in your new admin? And you know who I mean.

[BirKibrisli]

That's funny Bir, because when Buyukanit AND Erdogan openly state that the army will gradually retreat once a lasting solution has been found, no one takes them seriously, but when certain high ranking officers come to the island everyone can quickly read all sorts of messages from their actions alone.

There is no winning with you people and your prejudices.

Could that be because we know what we are talking about?
That we are amazed that as soon as some new hope arises for a solution in Cyprus, the present Chief and the future Chief-of-staff of the Turkish Army rush over to tell us what is and what is not acceptable???

Could it be that ,living in a democratic country,some of us are totally bewildered what gives these generals the power to dictate foreign and international affairs policy to their own civilian government??? Let alone a "foreign" so-called government!!!

Can I just ask what you think Tpap is doing at the moment Bir????What is going on in the South do you think???.........Do you really believe that he is out of the picture and this whole thing with reunification is going to go smoothly with no tricks???......

You asked me to ask the GCs to return to the Zurich agreement and I have been doing so since then....Have you seen any changes that reinforce your views that they are happy to do so????......

They have Greece on their side and we have Turkey.....What the army are saying is that we are in these talks as equals and without the that recognition then the talks are starting off on the wrong foot. We are not asking for some Greek land but for part of our own country and a part in our own countries running. The whole point of their side is to show that we are the underdogs in the whole affair and the Turkish army are saying, WE are saying, that we are not...We are equals and that is that.

You really need to sort yourself out with this hate you have...It has been a long time since you got burned......Time to move on...As you keep reminding others...Except yours is personal!!!!!!

You got me all wrong,Zan...I do not hate anyone. I love my people, the Turkish Cypriots,and want them to survive and thrive...You are right about Papadop and right about the invitation to return to the London and Zurich agreements...But you are wrong about Turkey being on our side. Turkey is on her own side,using us as bait to advance her own interests...I know it is difficult to admit this for most of you. Some of you even truly believe that Turkey is looking after our interests...But if you look closely at what is happening in Cyprus,you will see that TCs have been stripped off everything,and are being treated as idiotic pests who must be tolerated for the time being...As I said to my reply to Kikapu the only thing that will save us is a return to the True Republic of Cyprus as founded in 1960...
Our GC cousins however are hell bent on keeping us out,and hence they are also digging their own graves...Turkey in the foreseeable future will be the dominant force in the region,and America will not hesitate to throw the GCs to the wolves if and when it comes to a showdown with the mighty and American-friendly Turkish Army...The worse for Cypriots is yet to come,my dear friend...

I see no need to reiterate our obvious ties to Turkey on historical, cultural and ethnic aspects.... But let`s leave all of that aside for the sake of the conversation:

I think you have a convoluted perception of international relations. There is nothing wrong or unethical about a country looking after her interests and any TC with a minimal awareness of the realities on foreign affairs knows perfectly well that Turkey is here for her interests. What you fail to grasp is that those interests and associated objectives align perfectly with ours` as Turkish Cypriots:

(1) Absolute assurance of our safe and secure existence on this island with our true identity as Turkish Cypriots

(2) Prevention of ENOSIS

(3) Prevention of the Hellenization of the island.

The bottom line is that we want what they want, and they want what we want. The rest is bs...

This is where you are wrong,Murataga....They want what they want and we want what they want too...

Please think about this again...How can we live as Turkish Cypriots when we are already outnumbered at least 2 to one by the settlers...Our political power and will totally subjugated. Our dialect extinguished,our tradtions and customs made irrelevant,our culture assimilated...If all is rosy in the trnc,then why are the children of most Turkish Cypriots are going abroad for study (mostly to the USA) and never coming back...???

Enosis has been prevented.Or it has been achieved anyway via the EU,depending on your point of view...And it has been achieved by the TCs via the trnc,if you look at it that way...Enosis is dead and buried,except in the heads of those who want to use it as an excuse to justify their own actions...

Prevention of Hellenism???? That is one thing that no power on earth can achieve...The overwhelming majority of Cypriots are ethnically Hellenic. You cannot bannish Hellenism unless you banish 80% of Cypriots from their own country. But what is so evil about Hellenism??? Why can't we live and let live??? Why can't we live with Hellenism as long as they are prepared to live with our ethnic Turkish roots??? Are we not capable,at the beginning of the 21st Century,to see our differences as richness instead of as threats...Is that it??? ARe Cypriots not capable of learning from their past mistakes??? Are we not capable of forgiving our past misdeeds??? Are our hearts closed to compassion and tolerance??? Are we so primitive as human beings in your opinion???

[shahmaran]

That's funny Bir, because when Buyukanit AND Erdogan openly state that the army will gradually retreat once a lasting solution has been found, no one takes them seriously, but when certain high ranking officers come to the island everyone can quickly read all sorts of messages from their actions alone.

There is no winning with you people and your prejudices.

Could that be because we know what we are talking about?
That we are amazed that as soon as some new hope arises for a solution in Cyprus, the present Chief and the future Chief-of-staff of the Turkish Army rush over to tell us what is and what is not acceptable???

Could it be that ,living in a democratic country,some of us are totally bewildered what gives these generals the power to dictate foreign and international affairs policy to their own civilian government??? Let alone a "foreign" so-called government!!!

Yes you might know what you are talking about Birkibrisli, but then you might not. You do take a pretty perverse angle on the matter so anything is possible.

The army is the last resort against the people who would use democracy as an excuse to drive Turkey into the darker corners of politics, and i think the same goes for Cyprus and the "RoC".

[BirKibrisli]

Hello Bir, Glad to see your posts again.

Bir, you are right, we are not offering the TCs a return to the 1960 RoC! Do you know why? Because already -since 1977, we are offering them something even better for themselves, and even more difficult for us, than the 1960 RoC! However, even though we are already offering them something better than what you personally ask, they refuse to take it, because they aim and insist at something even more lucrative for themselves and even less tolerable for us!

Now you say, why don’t we offer them a return to the 1960 RoC? How on earth will they accept something less than what we already offer, if this better one that we already offer, is being refused for the hope and the sake of an even better, more maximal option?

Hello,dear Kifeas...Good to be back.

I am totally convinced now that we can not possibly agree on anything new in Cyprus...Too many self-interests are at play...Cypriots will not be allowed to find their own solution to their conflict...All this talk and attempted negotiations,technical committees etc,are just measures to delay finding a solution...I am ashamed to say that the TCs have been stripped of their political will,they cannot agree to anything not acceptable to the Turkish Army first and to the Turkish government second...Forget it...We have one and only one chance of getting out of this mess...To return to the only agreement we have...The only Republic we have founded together...Christofias must find the courage and the conviction to make the offer...The offer will be refused as you rightly point out...But nothing can stop Christofias to go ahead and implement it anyway...Nothing can stop him from implementing his Cypriotisation of Cyprus...The removal of the Greek flags and the anthem. Appointing a TC as his vice president. Electing 17 (was it?) TCs to the parliament. Making his cabinet 70/30...How on earth will Turkey then justify her presence in Cyprus????How can she withstand the international pressure to pull out and leave Cypriots to build their own nation,albeit 45 years late....????

The alternative is the annexation of 37% of Cyprus by Turkey and the disappearance of the TCs by means of assimilation... I believe we have no choice in the matter...The GCs must find it within themselves to act with courage and determination to win the TCs and their country back...