Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

Well it was him i think, no?

[Get Real!]

Well it was him i think, no?

So why the hell do people keep re-inventing themsleves???

[shahmaran]

They realise what a fuck up they are so they want to start over

[Piratis]

VP, Cyprus, like every other Greek territory and island, has been fighting to become part of a Greek state since the Greek revolution of 1821. Some territories where liberated soon after the revolution, and some others many decades later, some of them as late as the 1940s.

Are you telling me that it was illegal for Cypriots, and for Greeks in general, to fight against their rulers for freedom just because Turks had transferred parts of their population on our territories? Are you telling me that it was legal for Cyprus to be part of the Ottoman and British empires against the will of the Cypriots, but it was illegal to be part of the Greek state which is what the great majority of Cypriots themselves wanted??

And if Cyprus became part of the Greek state then which of your human rights would be violated? Nobody would physically harm you, nobody would send you to jail, nobody would take your land.

The fact is that after you oppressed us for centuries, then in the 1950s you collaborated with the British, and you started a conflict against us, in order to continue to deprive us from our freedom and self determination.


Today we are not talking about enosis or anything like that. We made that compromise in 1959. But we are not going to compromise our human rights, democracy and our lands, so you can have even more gains on our loss. Your minority should accept that they had enough gains on our loss already, and that there is no chance to achieve peace if you insist for further gains of land and power on our loss.

You claim you gave up the dream of enosis in 1959, then what was 1974 and the underhand tactics of 1963 onwards which deprived us of our human rights, why were you not fighting for my human rights back then please forgive me for not believing you when you are going around peddling human rights for all now that you have lost yours due to a situation you admit you contributed to.

Democracy must as you say take into account the needs of all the population, this was the biggest mistake of the GCs and falls short of the posts you have supplied in this thread yourself you tried to side track us and turn Cyprus into Greece, we are also indigenous to Cyprus and we will never give up our right to live here as equals, we tried this in 1960 but you had other plans for our future, just as you hate and detest the idea of being united to Turkey we feel the same about Greece, this I am sure you can understand. Our struggle was in direct retaliation of your dream to gift Cyprus to Greece with or without its TC population, your claiming that our rights woudl have been protected makes me laugh as there is enough evidence eg Crete to prove what the likely outcome of the TCs woudl have been but of course you will never understand this as you are not a TC and your life would not have been in the balance.

VP, I ask you again: No Greek territory or island should have been liberated because Turkish minorities where formed there? It is fine for Cyprus to be part of the Ottoman or British empires but not fine to be part of the Greek state which was the democratic wish of the Cypriot people?

Answer these questions please.

You also talk about what happened to some Turks in other Greek islands. Why don't you say about what happens of the Greeks of Asia Minor as well?

Beyond this, yes, I understand your concerns. You having concerns though doesn't mean that us wanting to be finally be liberated and unite with the free Greek state, like it happened to many other Greek territories and islands, was not our right.

In the 50s we fought against the colonialists, and you are the ones who started the conflict against us. We didn't ask for any human rights violations against you, but your taksim (partition) demand involved the killing and ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots.

So don't try to blame the inter-communal conflicts only on GCs when in fact you are the ones who started it and you have an equal share of responsibility for it.

Had you not insisted on partition and on unfair gains against us, then we could have easily negotiate a solution where Cyprus would not unite with Greece, but at least it would be a normal democratic country like all the rest. The same holds true today, but now, just like then, you continue to insist on gains on our loss and the effective partition of Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish" as well as the violations of our human rights. We on the other hand do not ask for union with Greece, neither we want any gains on the loss of your human rights.

Why do you still have problems accepting that the enosis dream was the biggest mistake in Cyprus history, it was the catalyst for division and the rest are excuses. You tried to take away our basic human right to live in our own country Cyprus, we did not want to be part of Greece, big mistake, it changed the landscape forever and now you are faced with a 37% 63% split, 40.000 troops and the settlers...legal or illegal it doesnt change the fact that now these obstacles are in your way therefore stopping you from achieving the GC state which spreads all over Cyprus.

To answer your question "liberating" islands off Greece was an expansionist ideology and did not take into the minorities that were crushed into non existence or Greekified, its these examples that fuel our need never to submit to your ideology of turning Cyprus into Greece.

We have concerns and they cannot be ignored...its when you acknowledge them and address them is when you find a solution, until that time we are prepared to wait if that time never arrives then life goes on pretty much as it does today.

So what you are saying is that Greeks did not have the right to be liberated because Turks had transfered part of their population on our territories? It was an "expansionist ideology"???? Really? So the Turks invading and enslaving Greek territories and islands was not an "expansionist ideology", but the Greeks revolting for their freedom was an "expansionist ideology" because the Turks had created some small minorities on our lands???

And when did we try to take away your basic human right to live in Cyprus?? You could live in a free liberated Cyprus just like any other ethnic minority would.
We were fighting against the colonialists for the liberation of our island, and you started the fight against us with demands that we should be killed and ethnically cleansed from the north part of our country.

You are the ones who started the attacks against us, and you are the ones who demanded that our human rights should be violated and our land stolen.

We never ventured out of our island to harm anybody. It is others who invaded us and oppressed us, something that continues until today. All we ever did was fight for our freedom from those foreign invadors. But apparently it is all fine if foreign invadors occupy and oppress Cyprus, but if Cypriots want to be liberated from foreign rule it is an "expansionist ideology" and they have to be punished for even thinking about it

[Piratis]

On the other hand the Kurds are the native people of the area called Kurdistan, and existed there long before the Turks came. The Kurds didn't steal the land they inhabit from the Turks. An example similar to the Kurds would be the Tibetans.

Where do you come up with this rubbish Piratis, is there some kind of an unwritten law that suggests "first come first serve" or have you done a genetic research to trace back the "natives" of certain lands, because according to you GC's are supposedly also meant to be the "natives" of Cyprus, yet we know that is utter crap.

In other words your entire argument, once boiled down, is based on an assumption you have mustered up in your own time which has absolutely no real scientific nor historical basis and you use it to give people priority rights to geographic locations. So according to you should Turks go back to central Asia and claim their "rightful" lands back?

People move around, fight, conquer, settle, fight more, travel more, go extinct, get assimilated, etc. this is just human nature, it means nothing at the current argument.

Apparently you are stuck in the middle ages and you believe that it is still fine to invade, conquer and steal the lands of others.

This might have been the norm in the past, but the Nazis who continue to support such ideas today are called criminals, not "natural". If we go by your kind of mentality then we should also classify rape and having sex with under age children as "natural" as well.

Why can't you finally progress in the 21st century and accept democracy, human rights and try to control your animal instincts? The era when the Turks could advance by using just their conquering skills is now over. Keeping that kind of mentality today not only doesn't help you, but on the contrary it has consequences which far outweigh any benefits you might have from the land grabs.

Come on Piratis, don't dodge the point, no one is claiming that they are OK, you are trying to support your weird belief by reverting to the past and i am simply pointing out that no one is really "indigenous" to any lands anymore as everyone came from some where, including you and i, and the Kurds.

The point is you are the one who still thinks its OK to revert back to the middle ages and judge nations today accordingly, how do you always do this Piratis, try to blame me for YOUR doings. Incredible i tell you

You contradict yourself. Before you told us that it is fine for Turks to invade and steal the lands of others because conquering is part of human nature, didn't you?

And I am not reverting to the past at all. It is you who is stuck in the past and thinks that it is fine to do today what was the norm in the middle ages.

[shahmaran]

I said nothing of that kind, i said that was "the way" in the past and it was! It is you who refers to "today" when you actually mean the 1800's, who gives a crap about what happened 200 years ago, its history!

Everyone moved and conquered, including the Greeks. No one is trying it today, other then the PKK who you openly support!

So how can you claim that these people are "indigenous", learn what "indigenous" means and come back when you have truly understand the meaning, and then we can talk again and see how much sense you really make.

There can be 2 meanings to the word in this case, 1 of them (naturally occuring) does not include any of us not even you, and the other one (ones birth place) includes all of us, you getting me? Stop manipulating ideas in order to make them fit into you narrow vision.

[Eric dayi]

"dancing street monkey"? That's kick-a-poo isn't it? Is RWP jealous and wants to join him?

Ah, look who's back. It's the Bi-Sexual, Wife Beater/Batterer Eric Dayi.!!!

Are you going to be around for a while Eric Dayi, so that I can explain to you why you are a Bi-Sexual and a Wife Batterer or are you going to disappear like last time for couple of months hoping that I will forget about you.!!

You only wish that I was a bi-sexual like you are so that I could join you on your knees and do a belly dance for your masters, ain't that right you GC convert?

I also wanted to introduce you to a Arizona Desert Creature that has your qualities. In fact, if you were to transform from being a Sub Human that you are today to a Desert Creature tomorrow, that's what you would become.............almost anyway.!!

Only a convert like you would know all about sub-humans and their habitations, after all, you converted in to one, didn't you, you belly dancing monkey?

So, let me know if you are going to be around for a while. I would not want you to miss this presentation on
"This is your Life".!!!

When I am around, I am around, when I am not around then I am not around.

You are nothing but a convert belly dancing monkey and will stay nothing but a convert belly dancing monkey.


The only thing that scares the hell out of me is that you might one day decide to convert back, just do us all a favour and stay with your communist bum chums. They need a convert belly dancing monkey like you to put a smile on their faces and stop their crocodile tears every now and then.

You are just a harmless idiot kick-a-poo, but you do entertain us every now and then, especially your commie GC bum buddies.

Keep up it up belly dancing monkey.

kick-a-poo "entertaining" his masters.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=jLa6mOlc6ww[/youtube]

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

So what you are saying is that Greeks did not have the right to be liberated because Turks had transfered part of their population on our territories? It was an "expansionist ideology"???? Really? So the Turks invading and enslaving Greek territories and islands was not an "expansionist ideology", but the Greeks revolting for their freedom was an "expansionist ideology" because the Turks had created some small minorities on our lands???

You have every right to fight for what you thought was right just like I did and do, the outcome is the result of your actions which we have to accept or fight against if we have the capacity.

The Turkish population arrived here 500 years so we have just as much right to this island as you, the island is not Greek get that into your heads it changed when you were conquered by the Ottomans, just like the Native American Indians or the Australian Aborigines, you have the right to live here just live everyone else no more no less. Its like saying the Native Americans have the right to unite America with Canada, you tried to sell us out to Greece the world knows this and that's why you pay the price today for the stupid mistakes of the past, just like we have to for ours. You signed with your fingers crossed to create a Cypriot people and opted to pursue your hidden agenda at our expense, what did you expect us to do lie down and submit to the same fate as the Turks of Crete? of course we fought and will fight back for what we believe is right.

And when did we try to take away your basic human right to live in Cyprus?? You could live in a free liberated Cyprus just like any other ethnic minority would.
We were fighting against the colonialists for the liberation of our island, and you started the fight against us with demands that we should be killed and ethnically cleansed from the north part of our country.

1963 to 1974 is when you tried to deny us our rights under an agreement signed by both communities, everything the TCs did was in direct retaliation of the GC dream of enosis. The division is a direct result of your own stupidity and actions, you have admitted this many times.

You are the ones who started the attacks against us, and you are the ones who demanded that our human rights should be violated and our land stolen.

And you ours, the knife cuts both ways.

We never ventured out of our island to harm anybody. It is others who invaded us and oppressed us, something that continues until today. All we ever did was fight for our freedom from those foreign invadors. But apparently it is all fine if foreign invadors occupy and oppress Cyprus, but if Cypriots want to be liberated from foreign rule it is an "expansionist ideology" and they have to be punished for even thinking about it

You didn't have to venture out as your prey the TCs were close at hand, those that arrived did on our request even makarios asked for help, your fight was against what you claimed only on paper not in pratice to be your people the TCs, that's the sad part of all this mess is your reluctance to see as us as equals and accept that we to have rights, we are not foreigners we are people of this island, you cannot push us or concerns to one side ever again.

[Piratis]

I said nothing of that kind, i said that was "the way" in the past and it was! It is you who refers to "today" when you actually mean the 1800's, who gives a crap about what happened 200 years ago, its history!

Everyone moved and conquered, including the Greeks. No one is trying it today, other then the PKK who you openly support!

So how can you claim that these people are "indigenous", learn what "indigenous" means and come back when you have truly understand the meaning, and then we can talk again and see how much sense you really make.

There can be 2 meanings to the word in this case, 1 of them (naturally occuring) does not include any of us not even you, and the other one (ones birth place) includes all of us, you getting me? Stop manipulating ideas in order to make them fit into you narrow vision.

I refer to "today" when I am talking about today (2008) and the last few decades, not about 1800.

Nobody asked from your minority to leave from Cyprus, just to accept that today we do not live in the era of the Ottomans and that you should now accept democracy, and stop trying to force your way against the will of the great majority of Cypriots.

About who is indigenous and who is not, that is a different topic we discussed many times. But since you want to talk about it again...

The Greeks didn't come to Cyprus as conquerors. The Greeks where among the first people to come to Cyprus and this happened many 1000s years ago (about the same time as the rest of Greece). Most of Cyprus was uninhabited back then and the total population for the whole island was no more than 5000 people. The Greeks created new cities, they didn't steal the land of anybody, and they gradually mixed with the few that existed in Cyprus already and those that came after in a similar way (e.g. Phoenicians) to create what is known today as "Greek Cypriots". So it really doesn't get any more native than this, unless you expected people to grow from the land, or be in central Africa where people first evolved from monkeys.

Turks on the other hand came to Cyprus just a few 100s of years ago as conquerers in the same way they conquered the rest of Greece and most of Middle East, north Africa and eastern Europe. In fact Cyprus was one of the last places they conquered. (Bulgarians were conquered in 1371, Serbs in 1389 and Athens fall to the Ottomans in 1458. Cyprus was conquered in 1571).

Nobody is asking from TCs to leave Cyprus, or saying that TCs are not Cypriot. What we are saying that TCs should stop acting today as if they are still the conquerors and rulers of this island, and accept that this island should be ruled by its own people (TCs included) in a democratic way.

[shahmaran]

That's not quite right Piratis, yes we might have come afterwards by conquering, but you cannot connect what has happened in the 50s and the 60s to those days nor to the Ottoman era, because you would be claiming that you were oppressing us very recently because of our past. How can the past be responsible for the 50s and the 60s?!

The Ottomans ruled you yes, but not us and certainly not in the 50s, so what happened there?

You decided that (as you are doing right now) you have every right to own this island against the will of its people, you saw an opportunity and you took it because you think majority rules!! Well you clearly don't.

So is that the kind of right nativity gives to people, because we are also natives here just like you.

Do you not see how you are contradicting yourself?