Cyprus-Forum.com

[pantheman]

never mind the Turkish street monkeys, welcome back DT.

Long time no see mate, hope all is OK with you.

Good to have some voice of reason here.

[DT.]

never mind the Turkish street monkeys, welcome back DT.

Long time no see mate, hope all is OK with you.

Good to have some voice of reason here.

All fine pantheman good to be back...had some R&R.

Just trying to catch up the latest crap Zan & Co have been coming up with lately. I see someone let Erica loose again.

[shahmaran]

It was only a comparison, Erdogan might be all for democracy, like you, but only because it suits his twisted views of the world, kind of like yours.

What would you do if you were on our side and that democracy meant you becoming just another foreigner in your own country? Not mentioning the Enosis attempt being also another "democratic right" according to you.

And how exactly democracy means that you became a foreigner? Does this means that in every democratic country the minorities in that country are foreigners? Does this mean that Kafenes who is an Armenian Cypriot is a foreigner in Cyprus because he accepts democracy like everybody else?

On the contrary accepting democracy makes you an integral part of the Cypriot people, and not something separate and foreign.

Ataturk religion, whatever it means to you i don't know, is anything but the lack of freedom in various beliefs, everyone is free to believe and practice what they like, what they are not free to do is bring these belief into the government! No one can tell me what to do simply because i happen to live in a Muslim country and i have to respect their belief by limiting my freedom, that's utter crap and that's what democracy means in Turkey at the moment.

In Turkey everyone is free to believe and practice what they like?? Thats why they have the article 301? Thats why their jails are full with political prisoners, Kurds, and anybody else that goes against what the Atuturk religion allows?

Great comparison Shah, Piratis like Erdogan thinks that it can be used to get what they want, tomorrow the majority may vote to kill every first male child born Piratis will you back this or say no its wrong we should fight to stop it? democracy can also be wrong.

What you say proves that you have no clue about what democracy means.
Read this: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

Some quotes:

In short, democracy is the institutionalization of freedom. For this reason, it is possible to identify the time-tested fundamentals of constitutional government, human rights, and equality before the law that any society must possess to be properly called democratic.

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.

Whatever Piratis, accepting democracy in Turkey is turning every ones lives into Iran slowly but surely, that's the kind of perverted democracy we will have in Cyprus, i much rather not have to worry about ethnic discrimination through numbers, and we all know how discriminative and ethnocentric Greeks are, we must be an utter idiot to fall for your shit, and same goes for Erdogan.

Anyone can practice anything in Turkey, as long as it doesn't cross Ataturks vision which is nothing more than a free modern Turkey, Sharia or "moderate Islam" just doesn't seem to fit in it so far and i personally don't believe it ever will, and neither do separatist terrorist murderers!

People don't go to jail for being Kurdish, they go to jail for threatening Turkeys unitary system, so dont act so naive, we both now the deal and you are certainly not so stupid to sincerely believe in what you preach above.

The 301 might not exist as it is in other countries but every country has its means of silencing certain threats and Turkey is no different, there is no doubt about that.

And what the hell do you mean by "Does this means that in every democratic country the minorities in that country are foreigners?" ?

Show me one country where the foreigners are the majority, and lets see how well they will be defending democracy then. You are quick to judge the Turkish democratic system that happens to be in favour of Islam at the moment but i tell you wouldn't be talking like this if you were a woman living there, tell her she has to be a second class citizen because the belief that the majority is in favour of, requires her to be so, and preserving democracy is more important then preserving modern humanity.

What a wonderful, free and democratic system we live in!

What a load of crap!

[Nikitas]

"they go to jail for threatening Turkeys unitary system"

Hmmm, that statement is peculiar in a forum where BBF and partition are bandied about freely.

[Brittania]

Whats the deal? Turks debating democracy now? Western world had this discussion a few centuries back.

FFS catch up!

I see this forum is as backward as ever.

[shahmaran]

"they go to jail for threatening Turkeys unitary system"

Hmmm, that statement is peculiar in a forum where BBF and partition are bandied about freely.

Well its funny you say that too Nikitas, since you yourself is totally against partition, going by your logic, one would expect you to symphatize with the Turkish struggle against the PKK.

But i guess the analogy only fits one way, and not both ways.

[Viewpoint]

It was only a comparison, Erdogan might be all for democracy, like you, but only because it suits his twisted views of the world, kind of like yours.

What would you do if you were on our side and that democracy meant you becoming just another foreigner in your own country? Not mentioning the Enosis attempt being also another "democratic right" according to you.

And how exactly democracy means that you became a foreigner? Does this means that in every democratic country the minorities in that country are foreigners? Does this mean that Kafenes who is an Armenian Cypriot is a foreigner in Cyprus because he accepts democracy like everybody else?

On the contrary accepting democracy makes you an integral part of the Cypriot people, and not something separate and foreign.

Ataturk religion, whatever it means to you i don't know, is anything but the lack of freedom in various beliefs, everyone is free to believe and practice what they like, what they are not free to do is bring these belief into the government! No one can tell me what to do simply because i happen to live in a Muslim country and i have to respect their belief by limiting my freedom, that's utter crap and that's what democracy means in Turkey at the moment.

In Turkey everyone is free to believe and practice what they like?? Thats why they have the article 301? Thats why their jails are full with political prisoners, Kurds, and anybody else that goes against what the Atuturk religion allows?

Great comparison Shah, Piratis like Erdogan thinks that it can be used to get what they want, tomorrow the majority may vote to kill every first male child born Piratis will you back this or say no its wrong we should fight to stop it? democracy can also be wrong.

What you say proves that you have no clue about what democracy means.
Read this: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

Some quotes:

In short, democracy is the institutionalization of freedom. For this reason, it is possible to identify the time-tested fundamentals of constitutional government, human rights, and equality before the law that any society must possess to be properly called democratic.

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.

So cut the crap and answer the question can the minority stop the majority rule when the majority want to annex Cyprus to Greece???? and the minortiy are threatened? they feel their human rights are being placed in danger?? does this minority have the right to fight back?

[Piratis]

"they go to jail for threatening Turkeys unitary system"

Hmmm, that statement is peculiar in a forum where BBF and partition are bandied about freely.

Well its funny you say that too Nikitas, since you yourself is totally against partition, going by your logic, one would expect you to symphatize with the Turkish struggle against the PKK.

But i guess the analogy only fits one way, and not both ways.

There is no comparison between the two. If you want to compare TCs, you should compare them with the Turks of Bulgaria, or other minorities formed in the last few centuries in various territories after the colonial powers transfered populations to their colonies. There are many examples.

On the other hand the Kurds are the native people of the area called Kurdistan, and existed there long before the Turks came. The Kurds didn't steal the land they inhabit from the Turks. An example similar to the Kurds would be the Tibetans.

So cut the crap and answer the question can the minority stop the majority rule when the majority want to annex Cyprus to Greece???? and the minortiy are threatened? they feel their human rights are being placed in danger?? does this minority have the right to fight back?

Did you read the quotes I gave above VP? They answer all your questions.

In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities

So democracy can not remove a single human right from you. At the same time you have to accept majority rule, and if a democratic choice does not violate any of your human rights then you are obligated to accept it. Thats how democracy works. You can't use force to get what you want whenever you don't agree with a democratic choice.

[Viewpoint]

"they go to jail for threatening Turkeys unitary system"

Hmmm, that statement is peculiar in a forum where BBF and partition are bandied about freely.

Well its funny you say that too Nikitas, since you yourself is totally against partition, going by your logic, one would expect you to symphatize with the Turkish struggle against the PKK.

But i guess the analogy only fits one way, and not both ways.

There is no comparison between the two. If you want to compare TCs, you should compare them with the Turks of Bulgaria, or other minorities formed in the last few centuries in various territories after the colonial powers transfered populations to their colonies. There are many examples.

On the other hand the Kurds are the native people of the area called Kurdistan, and existed there long before the Turks came. The Kurds didn't steal the land they inhabit from the Turks. An example similar to the Kurds would be the Tibetans.

So cut the crap and answer the question can the minority stop the majority rule when the majority want to annex Cyprus to Greece???? and the minortiy are threatened? they feel their human rights are being placed in danger?? does this minority have the right to fight back?

Did you read the quotes I gave above VP? They answer all your questions.

In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities

So democracy can not remove a single human right from you. At the same time you have to accept majority rule, and if a democratic choice does not violate any of your human rights then you are obligated to accept it. Thats how democracy works. You can't use force to get what you want whenever you don't agree with a democratic choice.

So do you now accept that your enosis dream was illegal and would have taken away our human rights to live in the "RoC" as equal citizens, and that we had the right to fight back and take was denied us by the GCs?


How will you guarantee my human and minority rights in a united Cyprus? this is the main concern we have we feel that if there are no safeguards to make the majority respect our human rights then they will twist and manipulate the situation to their benefit and there relegate us to second class citizenship, where we are discriminated against and will have to go to the ECHR just to get our basic human rights therefore driving us out of our homeland.

[Piratis]

VP, Cyprus, like every other Greek territory and island, has been fighting to become part of a Greek state since the Greek revolution of 1821. Some territories where liberated soon after the revolution, and some others many decades later, some of them as late as the 1940s.

Are you telling me that it was illegal for Cypriots, and for Greeks in general, to fight against their rulers for freedom just because Turks had transferred parts of their population on our territories? Are you telling me that it was legal for Cyprus to be part of the Ottoman and British empires against the will of the Cypriots, but it was illegal to be part of the Greek state which is what the great majority of Cypriots themselves wanted??

And if Cyprus became part of the Greek state then which of your human rights would be violated? Nobody would physically harm you, nobody would send you to jail, nobody would take your land.

The fact is that after you oppressed us for centuries, then in the 1950s you collaborated with the British, and you started a conflict against us, in order to continue to deprive us from our freedom and self determination.


Today we are not talking about enosis or anything like that. We made that compromise in 1959. But we are not going to compromise our human rights, democracy and our lands, so you can have even more gains on our loss. Your minority should accept that they had enough gains on our loss already, and that there is no chance to achieve peace if you insist for further gains of land and power on our loss.