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Kikapu

But that would mean the GC's would have to "gift" the North to the TC's, what ever % that may be, and from that date onwards, the GC's will never ever have any say so in the North anymore, despite 80% of the land belonging to the GC's, as well as those GC's choosing to live in the North will not have any voting rights, pass their properties to their heirs, sell their land to another GC, cannot hold any government jobs or positions, Turkish will be the official language, and to raps things up, everyone living in the North must give allegiance to Ataturk. Did I forget anything.?? And you expect the GC's to agree to a recognition of the North just to gain small % of land back.

Not gift they would either be compensated if they did not want to live under TC adminisration and those that wanted to reside with us in the TRNC could do so under the same laws enjoying the same rights as us. So the above scenario you paint in order to scaremonger will not work, the British live with us happily without any problems why couldnt the GCs?

Call me a pessimist, but I think the GC's would rather wait the TC's and Turkey out until Turkey is ready to be granted EU membership or Privileged Membership status. So it takes another 10-20 years.

By all means, this is their choice but would the rest of the world wait I get a strong feeling they wont, you can always take a risk and gamble.

In that time period the TC's will be swamped by the Turkish Nationals in the North, the South would have moved full steam ahead economically, and the North's economy will start to crumple as money will dry from selling stolen GC properties.

Good for the south, we wish them all the best in their 63%, the north will no longer concern them, why do you care? its our problem not yours.

If an agreed partition is going to be a total loss of the North for the GC's except for few % of land returned, why would they even consider allowing recognition for the North so that they can compete with the South on tourism and trade.?? Why would they want to lose their land forever and at the same time reward the TC's with a recognition, so that the TC's become a competition for them.?? I'm just thinking out loud, because VP thinks, in order to be good neighbours, the GC's will first have to cut their own throats so that they can bleed slowly, while the North prospers.

The north will prosper anyway, 8%++ minmum land return which would include Maras is not to be snubbed as it would mean the return of around 90.000 GC refugees, add to this the TC land exchanges and compensation packages I really feel it could work. As for competition with trust and cooperation gaining momentum the 2 sides could work together to promote tourism accross countries like Turkey and Greece do already.

Perhaps I got everything all upside down, and that what VP is proposing, will actually benefit the GC's over the TC's. Perhaps VP is thinking the best outcome for the GC's. Perhaps I'm just jerking with my self, and I just cant see the light that VP is offering to the GC's, to be given land and recognition to the TC's, so that the TC's and the GC's will come good neighbours and can sit down for nice "kelle" together. Well, I'm not jerking with myself, and if pushed came to shove, the GC's will just wait, and be prepared to lose the land if recognition were to come on the off chance that the planets will align themselves in the right position during one of these milleniums, then the GC's will make sure the North as well as Turkey stay in Asia for eternity.

You are just jerking around as agreed partition is not what you want thats why you will make every excuse under the sun and paint doom and gloom but in reality we already have partition which has brough peace and prosperity to both sides, unity did nto work but partition has, you cannot ignore this fact. We can wait as well and it is my prefered appraoch as I do not feel the GCs are sincere in their support for BBF and political equality of the 2 communities.

If you think that is not a big deal, think again. Turkey's stock market is down 29% in the first 3 months of 2008, ever since what Germany and France said about their EU prospects, as well as internal problems in Turkey itself. Other markets are down also, but no where near as bad as Turkey's. If Turkey does not manage to get into the EU, then there is a good chance she will become an Islamic country with radicalism becoming popular, and will become just another Middle East country without True Democracy. Average income has just climbed above $7,000, which is based in Dollars, and with the weakness of the dollar around the world and 8% inflation in Turkey, the actual purchasing power for the Turks is barely above $5,000. Hardly anything to write home about.

More doom and gloom why do you care so much? If we choose this route its our problem, you can side with your GC buddies and go you way and we will go ours, thats the whole point of agreed partition. I know you would support our failure but as I have said many time TCs will nto become a minority in a GC state, you need to get this fact registered in your head.

So all the Neo-Partionist can reject all reasonable True Federation offers to get Cyprus moving in the right direction in the hopes of getting an agreed partition, since a forced one for the last 30+ years has not worked, but my senses tell me, that the GC's will be more prepared to tell the TC's, "not in your life time", because they hold the key that will let Turkey into the West, as the last country standing in Turkey's way, if all the others in the EU are in an agreement to let her in. And if Turkey does not get into the EU and the North is lost to the TC's, then what would have been the difference with an agreed Partition.?? I would really like to know from the Neo-Partitionist specially.

Are you telling me that partition has not worked for GCs? you yourself cliam they have the best democracy in the world, respect even the ants human rights and are more wealthy than most countries put together. They have the GC state they longed for all they want now is more land and more wealth and they dont wanna share it with TCs, they want to take away our community rights quash our partnership and absorb us as a minority, aint gonna happen, with Turkeys hope of EU entry fading fast that leverage/key will be gone and there ill be no incentive for a solution, we all know Turkey is not an EU country and she will never make it in, slowly she to is realizing that the EU dream was just that a dream.

Just a quick response VP.

The British are the foreigners, therefore they do not have the same privileges as citizens of Cyprus. Whether the GC's live in the North or the South, they want to live as if they are in Cyprus and have every rights as any other citizen. But by having an agreed partition, you want to treat the GC's as foreigners, just like the British. So yes, in essence, they will be "gifting" the North to you, so that they become foreigners in their own land.

You can call anything I say as "Doom & Gloom" if you want, but the realities are there. As far as why I care what happens in the "TRNC" is because the land that it sits on belongs to all Cypriots and not just to you........sorry to keep reminding you of yet another reality. If that was not the case, you would not be searching for ways to make it legally yours, and since that is precisely what it is that you are doing, then it can only mean, that the land is not legally yours, so stop pretending that you have been given complete guardianship of the land in the North. Either you can be equal owners as any other Cypriots, or else you are just imposing your will with the might of the Turkish Military. Hardly the reaction on how any legal owner of anything acts in a True Democracy. Usually all we need is a piece of paper and I do not mean counterfeit deeds either.

No one is asking you to become a minority in Cyprus. You are just as equal as anyone else, if you let yourself to be a equal citizen. The only person that is stopping you, is yourself. If Barack Obama can become the next President of the USA as a BLACK MAN where his people were SLAVES one time, and were really treated as THIRD CLASS citizens, then what is your problem. Are you that much insecure to see yourself as an equal Cypriot or is it just another excuse to take land that does not belong to you. I tend to think is the latter personally, because everything that you have "concerns" about, are not valid, since measures can be taken to secure them for you without Racist, Undemocratic, and Violation of Human Rights. Agreed Partition your way to get legally, what does not belong to you now. Anymore tricks up your sleeve VP, or is this the final "Rabbit out of the Hat" trick left for you, since all other attempts have failed to produce anything that gives the North to you, LEGALLY.

No rabbit or magic Kikapu just hard cold facts that division is nothing new it has been working for 34 years, with Brits residing and even becoming citizens of the TRNC with the same rights as myself. We respect them and they respect us, we get along fine and have zero problems. Its only when you put GCs into the equation mix them up you yet trouble and strife. Those GCs wishing to live in theh TRNC will not be treated any differently from TCs, just as you see fit for me if I should reside in the "RoC" we can guaratee the same for GCs who live with us, whats so wrong with that?

You may twist and turn with your verbal acrobatics all you wish Kikapu, dismiss our concerns as unimportant which if you were to be concerned about TCs as much as you are GCs you would realize this type of attitude only makes us more determined to not give into GC demands that will absorb us intt a GC state without communtiy rights and safeguards.

You are right the north is occupied, occupied by us the TCs the right ful owners of Cyprus, we lost 63% of our country in order to find peace and happiness, the ghetto days, GC discrmination and persecution are over and we will never go backwards. 1974 changed everything forever, BBF and political equality are on offer take it or leave it, your leaders say they want it but the coming months will reveal exactly what they want. You can talk and talk but you cant change anything if one day you should have the miltary might then go ahead and do your worst but in the meantime if you shoudl one day decide to act like level headed people who want to share on an equal footing then we are preapred to listen otherwise the status quo can continue forever.

With an 80% imbalance in favır of GCs with an inbred racist and discrminative attitude, we wouldnt stand a chance in hell of being elected anywhere near the running of a united Cyprus.

The only way forward is BBF with political equality or agreed partition the choice is yours.

Let me ask the following questions,

Do you agree to a 2 state solution north and south?

Do you agree both states shoudl be joined at a federal level?

Do you agree the federal administration should be a 30% TC 70% GC split?

Do you agree all armies should leave and all arms should be removed?

Do you agree settlers on both sides Turks in the north and Pontiacs in the south should leave or be inticed to leave using EU norms?

Do you agree all refugees should be offered the right to return or compensation?

Do you agree a 30% 70% split in parliament where both sides have veto rights on sensative issues like in the EU?

Lets we where we get unstuck?

[zan]

Let them tear down the statues of Makarios and knock on the door of Tpap.......They are to blame for their losses.

Who said anything about anyone losing anything. At the same time, you have not been able to gain anything either. If you did, you would not be needing 40,000 troops to help you keep it. Sorry to remind you Zan, but whole of Cyprus is recognised by the world as a sovereign country for all Cypriots. Just because you can "bully" 200,000 off their property, does not mean they have lost their land and that you have gained it. Counterfeit Land Deeds are not good enough to make you the "new owners" of others land. Think of it as a "lay away plan" for the land that belongs to the 200,000 GC's. Their land is just earning interest as it's value goes up every day. You may be able to sell their land to the Morally Corrupted, but the good news is, they can't take that land away with them. The land will be there for their rightful owners, long after the Morally Corrupted are long gone.

Why do GC's always inflate figures

142,000 GC's according to official Greek Cypriot sources, ROC Press and Information Office (PIO), The Cyprus Question, (Nicosia, 2003), p. 12

30,000 Turkish military which is quoted many times by GC Government.

Now looking at both you have inflated by 25%.

The reality is with any settlement not everybody will get their land and property back GC's and TC's. How can for example TC get their land back at the airports - roads/motereways etc... in the South. Just will not happen so they will get compensation as will the GC's who don't get theirs back.

You don't even know who is a GC and who is a TC that raised the above statement, then you make a statement that does not fit the reality.

Are you discounting the children born to refugees as non-refugees Nurgary or did you forget to count them, or do they not count because they were born after 1974. In reality, had their parents were not thrown of their land and property, those born since 1974 would be living in the same villages and towns as their parents. Therefore in reality, with each passing year since 1974, the refugee numbers go up until they return back to their ancestral land.. But if the figures you gave makes you sleep better at night with a clear conscious, then use what ever figures you want.

As for land used for public projects as you have mentioned above is a different story than those used for individual gains on the loses of the rightful owners (temporarily). Are you denying that large amounts of GC land is used for illegal gains
"Haram money" and not building Hospitals, Schools, Roads, and Ports.??

what a load of bollox That would make every single Tc that has been born outside Cyprus a refugee as well.......Those numbers you quote just shows that like others you only read Greek propaganda and you have done no other reading to bring you up to date and make you know the Cyprob for real...Your numbers are as fake as you are mate....

[zan]

Let them tear down the statues of Makarios and knock on the door of Tpap.......They are to blame for their losses.

Who said anything about anyone losing anything. At the same time, you have not been able to gain anything either. If you did, you would not be needing 40,000 troops to help you keep it. Sorry to remind you Zan, but whole of Cyprus is recognised by the world as a sovereign country for all Cypriots. Just because you can "bully" 200,000 off their property, does not mean they have lost their land and that you have gained it. Counterfeit Land Deeds are not good enough to make you the "new owners" of others land. Think of it as a "lay away plan" for the land that belongs to the 200,000 GC's. Their land is just earning interest as it's value goes up every day. You may be able to sell their land to the Morally Corrupted, but the good news is, they can't take that land away with them. The land will be there for their rightful owners, long after the Morally Corrupted are long gone.

Why do GC's always inflate figures

142,000 GC's according to official Greek Cypriot sources, ROC Press and Information Office (PIO), The Cyprus Question, (Nicosia, 2003), p. 12

30,000 Turkish military which is quoted many times by GC Government.

Now looking at both you have inflated by 25%.

The reality is with any settlement not everybody will get their land and property back GC's and TC's. How can for example TC get their land back at the airports - roads/motereways etc... in the South. Just will not happen so they will get compensation as will the GC's who don't get theirs back.

N tries to make a comparison of the land issue in the north and south at the end of the above. There is a world of difference between a state taking private land in the south for major infrastructure projects such as expansion at LCA airport and motorway building. It is common practise throughout Europe and the rest of the world that states will compulsorily purchase land, after due process, for large scale projects that benefit economies.

The situation in the north is unheard of anywhere in the world ( to the best of my knowledge ) with plain and simple wholesale thefts of land on a massive scale on the strength of dodgy documents and even dodgier reasoning.

I say again - world of difference. One is legal by any international standards the other has been criminal theft of the vilest, most base type.

Another crock of shit.......You take all the problems of land in Cyprus and just ignore them and then give me some bollocks about other countries appropriating land for the state...A fake and corrupt state at that.....You neglect to remind people that a commission...A legal commission...Has been set up to deal with GC property in the TRNC/KKTC to solve the problem.......And...That the "RoC" has been ILLEGALLY telling their people that they cannot approach this entity or to exchange or sell their property if they want to.

[Nurgary]

...Just because you can "bully" 200,000 off their property, does not mean they have lost their land and that you have gained it.

Why do GC's always inflate figures

142,000 GC's according to official Greek Cypriot sources, ROC Press and Information Office (PIO), The Cyprus Question, (Nicosia, 2003), p. 12

Why do some Turkish Cypriots post through their arse?

The revised statistics on displaced GC persons as conducted by the UN and the government of Cyprus were as follows:

1. Greek Cypriots in Government-controlled areas :

Satisfactorily sheltered with friends/relatives or in second homes rented…..57,600
Living in public buildings, schools, etc………………………………….………………………… 5,800
Housed in permanent structures, but overcrowded conditions and will have
to move…………………………………………………………….………………………………………………89,700
Living in shacks, garages, unfinished structures………………….…………………………11,000
Living in tents……………………………………………………………………………………….…………….9,000
Living in the open, under trees, in makeshift, open shelters…………………………..7,700

Total 180,800

3. Greek Cypriots in Turkish-occupied area:

Living in cut-off villages, or displaced 9,000

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/conseque ... senate.htm[
/quote]

nice try - but this report was "obviously sympathetic to the Greek Cypriot situation. There is no context for the Turkish action, for example. The chair of the subcommittee was Sen. Edward Kennedy, often an outspoken opponent of Kissinger and elected from a state, Massachusetts, with a large and influential Greek-American community".

The official figures are 142,000 GC as posted on official GC Government website.

Now I don't have an issue with that as a higher % of TC were displaced to the North. But we can argue figures all day. What needs to be captured is the true figures for everything.

Real % of land owned - true % of population etc... undertaken by UN and EU and their figures will be binding. There are big differences between both sides figures.

Regarding GC refugee numbers Cyprus today had something to say about this

"THE STATE’S criterion for recognising refugee status is discriminatory and in contravention of EU law, Ombudsperson Eliana Nicolaou told the House refugees committee yesterday. She was referring to the government’s decision that only fathers were entitled to pass on their refugee status to their offspring; children who had only a refugee mother would not be considered refugees by the state.

Nicolaou’s observation is correct, though she has not said anything that deputies did not know. In fact deputies have been discussing amending the discriminatory law on refugee status since the beginning of the year.

Despite the ongoing discussions, we have yet to hear anyone question the absurdity of this law which seeks to make refugee status a hereditary right. This is what deputies should have been talking about, not about extending the right to more people.

According to government calculations, if the law covered the offspring of female refugees as well, the number of people with refugee status would increase by 40,000, from 34 to 42 per cent of the population.

Some years later, if there is no settlement, the refugees would rise to more than 70 per cent of the population, all of whom would be demanding low-interest housing loans and other state benefits, without actually being the neediest members of our society.

The politically sensitive Nicolaou, did not mention the way the refugee law discriminated against low-wage earners, who were not entitled to the benefits that people with refugee status enjoyed.

The problem is that there is no rational justification for the lawmaking refugee status a birth right. On what legal grounds could a person born in the Republic after 1980 be classified as a refugee?

Only in Cyprus could such a suspect law have been passed. And only in Cyprus would politicians be bickering about its discriminatory provision while being unable to see that the law is fundamentally flawed both in spirit and in essence"

What about the TC refugees and their offspring? There numbers using the GC criteria would also be very high as 45,000 were displaced also and they breed like rabbits - so the GC's keep posting here.

[Kikapu]

what a load of bollox That would make every single Tc that has been born outside Cyprus a refugee as well.......

Yes Zan, If the TC's left Cyprus as Refugees, and they are refused access back to their land and property, then their children too becomes a refugees status if they are born after their departure. Palestinians who were evicted by the Israelis who have been living in Jordan and other countries are still Refugees, even after 60 years have passed. Why, because they cannot return back to their land. Are the TC's (refugees) who have left Cyprus after 1963 refused access to their land and homes anywhere in Cyprus ?. If not, then how can you declare them as Refugees. If they chose not to go to their properties, then it is a personal choice, unless they are in physical danger of being hurt. Can you make any claims, that if any TC that wants to return back to their property in the South will be hurt.? Since few thousand TC's already live in the South and many more thousands cross everyday to work, and many many thousands more TC's hold a RoC citizenship's, how can you claim them being Refugees. But if they are, then their children are also. Large majority of the TC's who have left the properties in the South, which they remain as legal owners, have been compensated with stolen GC's in the North, so for most, they do not see the incentive to move back. Had that not been done, illegally I may add, Cyprus problem could have been solved long time ago. Now you have Morally Corrupted making a living in dealings with stolen GC properties. They are also known as Neo-Partitionist.

Those numbers you quote just shows that like others you only read Greek propaganda and you have done no other reading to bring you up to date and make you know the Cyprob for real...Your numbers are as fake as you are mate....

Yes Zan, always shoot the messenger if you do not like to hear, what it is that you don't like to hear. Then again, how can you accept anything to be valid, if you are an accomplice in accepting the wrong doings to others.

There is nothing fake about me. If there was, you would have seen it in the last two years since I have been on the forum, or are you that Stupid to have missed it until recently, and if you don't think you have missed it, then that makes you
Double Stupid for coming to a wrong conclusion. Keep up with your assessments of me and soon you will find yourself being in the Double-Double Stupid level.

Lets see where you will end up this time next year Zan. My guess is, you will run out of Doubles.!!!

[zan]

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

[Kikapu]

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

What's the matter Zan, not the response you were were expecting.......again.

I have underestimated on how soon you would reach Double-Double-Double Stupidity level.....

Looks like ....it's already here.

[zan]

It is exactly the answer that I expected and am accustomed too Kikaplolouikosticos.....You forgot to add your dog and bird brain into the equation though....... am off to work now...To talk to adults. Keep playing with your little toy sonny.......I might bring you back a gob stopper if you are good!!!!

[Kikapu]

It is exactly the answer that I expected and am accustomed too Kikaplolouikosticos.....You forgot to add your dog and bird brain into the equation though....... am off to work now...To talk to adults. Keep playing with your little toy sonny.......I might bring you back a gob stopper if you are good!!!!

Face it Pinocchio, you are just an "Empty Suit" without any substantive things to say.

I can just hear your adults friends saying as they see you coming to work...Oh shit, I forgot to bring my ear plugs, my iPod, my CD player, my cassette player and my 8-track player!!!

You have friends that still uses 8-track players Pinocchio.??

[halil]

Kikapu,

Why Power Sharing Does Not Work.......!!

Which day is yoday ?

Celebrations for of it today .......