Cyprus-Forum.com

[EPSILON]

Bouboulina was Albanian, just like Miaoulis and Kanaris. Odysseas Androutsos too and many others. The Souliotisses, who danced the Zaloggo dance and willingly jumped over the cliffs rather than surrender to the Turks, spoke only Albanian.

Ther above is dedicated to all sick nationalists of the forum.

And you are a Mongolian but you call yoursef Turk!!!!!

[EPSILON]

Black and white Piratis, as usual. Blaming all the Turkish Cypriots for all our misfortunes. Piratis, i am now going to speak with your language. I know 100's of TC's who love Cyprus 1000 times more than you and your kind who mindlesly and criminally, without taking into account the circumstances, turned Cyprus into hell because of your sick nationalist notions to unite us with Greece, whatever the cost. Happy?

Can you my friend tell us since when T/cs discover that union with Greece is a problem for them? Maybe after 1956 when British employed some of them as policemen? Where T/cs were before that year. Where and when they rejected Union with Greece? When T/cs discovered again their links to mainland Turkey?

History you know can be placed in different ways but the trugh of course is only one.

History says that Asia Minor, Istanbul , Greek islands are full of Greek civilization provements and ,of course, even tour operators in Turkey quoting all these as ancient Turks achievments - the trugh remain the same.

The funny thing is that i heard that is a civilization conference in Turkey - Maybe Turks can describe to this conference the civilization they brought in this World.Maybe some famous genocides, and some very good builded small bridges .ohh.i forgot ..and some changes in peoles Nationalities.All should be Turkish Nationality otherwise ....

[Hatter]

Hatter, that is the most serious question asked so far. Let us see. Spyros Trikouppis wrote in 1875, among else, in his "history of the Greek revolution": "It is a complete and utter lie that the revolution flag was raised at the monastery of Ayia Lavra".

In the meantime, the ideals of the French Revolution touched the hearts of the people under the yoke of the Ottomans and these ideals formed new socioeconomic criteria within the boundaries and even outside the Ottoman Empire. Hence, numerous Albanians fought on the side of the Greek revolutionaries. The church stood firmly against enlightenment and called the people to obey the rulers blindly, like good Christians, because obeying was the "greatest virtue". This stance kept the rulers very happy and allowed the church to maintain its privileges.

When the revolution started, the church through the patriarch in Constantinople, excommunicated the revolution itself and the revolutionaries, including Rigas Feraios and Ipsilantis.

Here is the exact wording of the excommunication:

"... Εκείνους δε τους ασεβείς πρωταιτίους και απονενοημένους φυγάδας και αποστάτας ολεθρίους να τους μισείτε και να τους αποστρέφεστε και διανοία και λόγω, καθότι και η εκκλησία τους έχει μεμισημένους, και επισωρεύει κατ΄ αυτών τας παλαμναιοτάτας και φρικωδεστάτας αράς: ως μέλη σεσηπότα, τους έχει αποκεκομμένους της καθαράς και υγιαινούσης χριστιανικής ολομελείας. Ως παραβάται δε των Θείων νόμων και κανονικών διατάξεων... ΑΦΟΡΙΣΜΕΝΟΙ υπάρχειεν και κατηραμένοι και αυγχώρητοι και μετά θάνατον (...)".

Bananiot,

Whether the revolution flag was raised at the monastery of Ayia Lavra or not, it is irrelevant to the assertion that the church was against the uprising. Thus far, the only seemingly relevant point to support your assertion is the declaration/ex-communication issued by the patriarch in Costantinople (Gregorios the 5th), but let 's just look at that for a moment: in history, events should be considered in relation to the context in which they took place, otherwise we end up with half-truths that can be evn worse than lies. The context in this case is that the patriarchate of Costantinople, fom the outset of Ottoman rule was effectively hostage to the Ottomans and had to fall into line. The aphorism served the purpose of averting, or minimising the risk of, persecution of the christian population by the Ottoman Turks. That patriarch Gregorios was in reality in support of the uprising, albeit clandestingly, is demonstrated by the fact that when his actual role became known, the Ottoman Turk authorities hanged him, barely a month after the start of the 1821 uprising.

[Bananiot]

The so called raising of the flag at the monastery of Ayia Lavra is relevant to the fact that generations of Greeks have been brought up with lies such as this one.

Of course it is easy to claim that the Patriarch had to say what he said and excommunicate the revolution, perhaps to save his skin, as you quite clearly insinuate. G.Kordatos, in his "Great history of Greece" writes that priests in general and the hierarchy of the orthodox church had great interest in being blind followers of the Sultan who allowed them to have privilaged positions everywhere and were sole representatives of the richness of the church.

In the same book Kordatos says: "The real patriots who hold high offices sacrifice themselves under such circumstances" meaning that they do not issue excommunication orders in order to appease the Sultan and stall the revolution. Kordatos claims that his hunging must be seen as the result of fearce underground competition among Despots and Bishops who wanted the Patriarch's throne. We have seen these intriques happen very recently in Cyprus and in Greece. These people never change, do they? Some Despots maliciously reported him to the Sultan that he was the leader of the "Philiki Etaireia" and Kordatos goes on to name the sycophant. It was the Bishop of Pisidas, Evgenios, who was then put in charge as the next Patriarch, on the orders of the Sultan.

Do these sound like half truths to you Hatter?

[insan]

Black and white Piratis, as usual. Blaming all the Turkish Cypriots for all our misfortunes. Piratis, i am now going to speak with your language. I know 100's of TC's who love Cyprus 1000 times more than you and your kind who mindlesly and criminally, without taking into account the circumstances, turned Cyprus into hell because of your sick nationalist notions to unite us with Greece, whatever the cost. Happy?

Can you my friend tell us since when T/cs discover that union with Greece is a problem for them? Maybe after 1956 when British employed some of them as policemen? Where T/cs were before that year. Where and when they rejected Union with Greece? When T/cs discovered again their links to mainland Turkey?

History you know can be placed in different ways but the trugh of course is only one.

History says that Asia Minor, Istanbul , Greek islands are full of Greek civilization provements and ,of course, even tour operators in Turkey quoting all these as ancient Turks achievments - the trugh remain the same.

The funny thing is that i heard that is a civilization conference in Turkey - Maybe Turks can describe to this conference the civilization they brought in this World.Maybe some famous genocides, and some very good builded small bridges .ohh.i forgot ..and some changes in peoles Nationalities.All should be Turkish Nationality otherwise ....

TCs r against Enosis since 1822. It has never been a hidden agenda for Hellenes so why shouldn't TCs aware of Enosis until they joined forces with Brits to fight against armed struggle of EOKA for Enosis. TCs colloborated with Brits not only against EOKA's armed struggle but always during the British rule. There r many articles regarding Enosis and TC opposition in the then newspapers(1890-1956) of TCs and GCs besides many telegrams sent by TCs to then the Brit governor of Cyprus.

As to the Greek civilization; u r confusing Ancient Greek civilization with poor contemporary "Greek Civilization".

[Hatter]

The so called raising of the flag at the monastery of Ayia Lavra is relevant to the fact that generations of Greeks have been brought up with lies such as this one.

Of course it is easy to claim that the Patriarch had to say what he said and excommunicate the revolution, perhaps to save his skin, as you quite clearly insinuate. G.Kordatos, in his "Great history of Greece" writes that priests in general and the hierarchy of the orthodox church had great interest in being blind followers of the Sultan who allowed them to have privilaged positions everywhere and were sole representatives of the richness of the church.

In the same book Kordatos says: "The real patriots who hold high offices sacrifice themselves under such circumstances" meaning that they do not issue excommunication orders in order to appease the Sultan and stall the revolution. Kordatos claims that his hunging must be seen as the result of fearce underground competition among Despots and Bishops who wanted the Patriarch's throne. We have seen these intriques happen very recently in Cyprus and in Greece. These people never change, do they? Some Despots maliciously reported him to the Sultan that he was the leader of the "Philiki Etaireia" and Kordatos goes on to name the sycophant. It was the Bishop of Pisidas, Evgenios, who was then put in charge as the next Patriarch, on the orders of the Sultan.

Do these sound like half truths to you Hatter?

They certainly do not sound like convincing arguments, Bananiot. It is very easy to dismiss an argument on the basis that it is easy to make tha argument. Firstly, I did not insinuate that Gregorios said what he had to say in order to save his skin. I do not discuss by insinuation - that predilection seems to be with others. I said that Gregorios said what he had to say to save his people at large.

You conveniently ignore my point about the hanging of Gregorios by the Ottomans.

As for the sources you quote: they do not reallysupport your assertion that the church was against the uprising, and by the way, do these sources reconcile their claims with well known examples such as Papaflessa, Athanasios Diakos, Kosmas Aetolos, etc?

Another indication of the role played by the church is the Kryfo Scholio, and before you jump to the "it was all a myth" kind of response, let me point out that it is a historical fact that such schools existed. The churchmen that made this happen doid not do it "to preserve their privileges", they were actually risking their lives. You have yet to prove your assertion.


A half-truth IS worse than a lie.

[Bananiot]

I am off, now, to foreign lands. I will catch up with you in 10 days.

P.S. Krypho Scholio never existed of course. And, did I ignore your point about Gregorius? Read again my answer.

[Oracle]

[You conveniently ignore my point about the hanging of Gregorios by the Ottomans.

Welcome Hatter ....

It is no surprise that Bananiot ignores any atrocities by Otto-Turks. In his eyes, these are the stuff of History which need to be re-written.

[Hatter]

I am off, now, to foreign lands. I will catch up with you in 10 days.

P.S. Krypho Scholio never existed of course. And, did I ignore your point about Gregorius? Read again my answer.

There is no "of course" about it, Bananiot. For example, there were such schools in the Ioannina islet, in the monastery on Penteli, in Arnaea in Halkidiki, in Demetsana in Arkadia, to name but a few. Of course the functioning of these schools was sporadic, for obvious reasons. But what was an important element in all this was the continued contact with a conduit of greek civilisation

And you did effectively ignore my point about the hanging of Gregorios, if all you can claim is Kordatos's claim. I guess the Sultan was so gullible, that he fell for the plotters' stories and risked fuelling the uprising by hanging the patriarch? you really find this credible? Of course, there are always quislings that are ready to step up, and fill a vacuum - but these, e.g. the individual you mentioned as the successor to Gregorios do not constitute "the church".

Have a good holiday, and when you come back we could discuss all these things if you like, including the continuity of hellenic civilisation from the era of classical greec to the present day.

[Hatter]

[You conveniently ignore my point about the hanging of Gregorios by the Ottomans.

Welcome Hatter ....

It is no surprise that Bananiot ignores any atrocities by Otto-Turks. In his eyes, these are the stuff of History which need to be re-written.

Hi Oracle ...

... and thanks for the welcome.