Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas,

The “guarantorship” treaties, especially the provisions for unilateral intervention "rights,” have ZERO international status! They crossly contradict with, and are nullified by the UN Charter, thus the Turkish invasion was illegal!

Oh no ! Not this again ! Total nonsense 'nullified by the UN Charter', my eye.

It never ceases to amaze me how this forum goes round and round in ever darkening circles in which no light is allowed to illuminate new or different perspectives. Perhaps this forum is, after all, an accurate reflection of the broader Cyprus problem and the sheer stubborn inability to resolve the issues. As the grand old man said, history repeats itself first as tragedy but the second time as farce. If that is so, cyprus forum discussions repeat themselves as sheer absurdity.

Fuck you Copperline! You are totally clueless! I speak with facts, evidence, documents and legal knowledge; you speak (fart) with your back shit hole! Soon you will find out, and then will swallow your words and saliva!

Fuck you once more, idiot!

Mr Angry tonight Kifeas?

[Nikitas]

"And we trust the GC army? " asks VP. Well no, you do not, you have to trust a mainland Greek army which under your proposals would be stationed on the island forever, along with a Turkish army. You guys are just not ready to grow up yet.

Under this BBF scheme you would have you own TC armed police force, which would have exclusive policing powers in the TC statelet, but that is not enough, you have to have the Turks in there to hold your hand, or to threaten everyone else on the island. What a fraud this is turning out to be yet again!

[Viewpoint]

"And we trust the GC army? " asks VP. Well no, you do not, you have to trust a mainland Greek army which under your proposals would be stationed on the island forever, along with a Turkish army. You guys are just not ready to grow up yet.

Under this BBF scheme you would have you own TC armed police force, which would have exclusive policing powers in the TC statelet, but that is not enough, you have to have the Turks in there to hold your hand, or to threaten everyone else on the island. What a fraud this is turning out to be yet again!

You are reading but not understanding what I am saying the Turkish army will depart over a period of time which will allow us time to impliment a comprehensive solution. Otherwise you are preparing a receipt for disaster where mayhem will rule and any local police will be over stretched to deal with property disputes let alone crimes. Just wanting the Turkish army to leave today will not create an atmosphere of trust TCs will feel exposed to extremists and possible conflict, if the Turkish army are to leave then the GC army plus armed reservists should also be reduced at the same pace.

[Oracle]

"And we trust the GC army? " asks VP. Well no, you do not, you have to trust a mainland Greek army which under your proposals would be stationed on the island forever, along with a Turkish army. You guys are just not ready to grow up yet.

Under this BBF scheme you would have you own TC armed police force, which would have exclusive policing powers in the TC statelet, but that is not enough, you have to have the Turks in there to hold your hand, or to threaten everyone else on the island. What a fraud this is turning out to be yet again!

You are reading but not understanding what I am saying the Turkish army will depart over a period of time which will allow us time to impliment a comprehensive solution. Otherwise you are preparing a receipt for disaster where mayhem will rule and any local police will be over stretched to deal with property disputes let alone crimes. Just wanting the Turkish army to leave today will not create an atmosphere of trust TCs will feel exposed to extremists and possible conflict, if the Turkish army are to leave then the GC army plus armed reservists should also be reduced at the same pace.

If they start leaving now, at the rate of 1,000 Turkish soldiers per week ... we could have a happy, healthy normal Cyprus again by Christmas ....

[Viewpoint]

"And we trust the GC army? " asks VP. Well no, you do not, you have to trust a mainland Greek army which under your proposals would be stationed on the island forever, along with a Turkish army. You guys are just not ready to grow up yet.

Under this BBF scheme you would have you own TC armed police force, which would have exclusive policing powers in the TC statelet, but that is not enough, you have to have the Turks in there to hold your hand, or to threaten everyone else on the island. What a fraud this is turning out to be yet again!

You are reading but not understanding what I am saying the Turkish army will depart over a period of time which will allow us time to impliment a comprehensive solution. Otherwise you are preparing a receipt for disaster where mayhem will rule and any local police will be over stretched to deal with property disputes let alone crimes. Just wanting the Turkish army to leave today will not create an atmosphere of trust TCs will feel exposed to extremists and possible conflict, if the Turkish army are to leave then the GC army plus armed reservists should also be reduced at the same pace.

If they start leaving now, at the rate of 1,000 Turkish soldiers per week ... we could have a happy, healthy normal Cyprus again by Christmas ....

OK what about the rest of a comprehensive solution?

[CopperLine]

I agree that the idea of guarantor powers is not only an anachronism but that it would be a dangerous one to boot. It is a proposition which - whether adopted by Turkey, Greece, UK or even EU - has all the hallmarks of a colonial condescension and colonial mentality. So getting rid of guarantor powers, getting rid of SBAs, getting rid of foreign armies is all good with me. (Complete demilitarisation even better). But I'm not going to confuse and conflate my wishes or preferences for Cyprus with how to build trust, ensure compliance, or even how to begin negotiating or bargaining.

Even if most of you agreed with my wishes (I suspect only a tiny minority, if that, actually do ) it would be naive of me to believe that these wishes would be secured instantaneously or without some tough compromise. If X fears the Turkish army's presence and Y fears the Turkish army's absence, trust and confidence is not going to be built by repeating the chant 'Turkish army out now/Turkish army here forever'. Some way around this impasse, this deadlock has to be explored although the result of that exploration may neither satisfy the absolute demands of X and/or Y. It is called negotiation. And the fundamental truth of negotiation is that you negotiate with your enemies, those who have done you unspeakable harm, and who may remain determined to stymy your wishes and desires.

(Of course if you don't want to negotiate with your enemies then don't negotiate, but then don't be surprised if the de facto partition becomes permanent and you lose everything you once held dear).

[denizaksulu]

I agree that the idea of guarantor powers is not only an anachronism but that it would be a dangerous one to boot. It is a proposition which - whether adopted by Turkey, Greece, UK or even EU - has all the hallmarks of a colonial condescension and colonial mentality. So getting rid of guarantor powers, getting rid of SBAs, getting rid of foreign armies is all good with me. (Complete demilitarisation even better). But I'm not going to confuse and conflate my wishes or preferences for Cyprus with how to build trust, ensure compliance, or even how to begin negotiating or bargaining.

Even if most of you agreed with my wishes (I suspect only a tiny minority, if that, actually do ) it would be naive of me to believe that these wishes would be secured instantaneously or without some tough compromise. If X fears the Turkish army's presence and Y fears the Turkish army's absence, trust and confidence is not going to be built by repeating the chant 'Turkish army out now/Turkish army here forever'. Some way around this impasse, this deadlock has to be explored although the result of that exploration may neither satisfy the absolute demands of X and/or Y. It is called negotiation. And the fundamental truth of negotiation is that you negotiate with your enemies, those who have done you unspeakable harm, and who may remain determined to stymy your wishes and desires.

(Of course if you don't want to negotiate with your enemies then don't negotiate, but then don't be surprised if the de facto partition becomes permanent and you lose everything you once held dear).

My sentiments exactly

[pantheman]

I agree that the idea of guarantor powers is not only an anachronism but that it would be a dangerous one to boot. It is a proposition which - whether adopted by Turkey, Greece, UK or even EU - has all the hallmarks of a colonial condescension and colonial mentality. So getting rid of guarantor powers, getting rid of SBAs, getting rid of foreign armies is all good with me. (Complete demilitarisation even better). But I'm not going to confuse and conflate my wishes or preferences for Cyprus with how to build trust, ensure compliance, or even how to begin negotiating or bargaining.

Even if most of you agreed with my wishes (I suspect only a tiny minority, if that, actually do ) it would be naive of me to believe that these wishes would be secured instantaneously or without some tough compromise. If X fears the Turkish army's presence and Y fears the Turkish army's absence, trust and confidence is not going to be built by repeating the chant 'Turkish army out now/Turkish army here forever'. Some way around this impasse, this deadlock has to be explored although the result of that exploration may neither satisfy the absolute demands of X and/or Y. It is called negotiation. And the fundamental truth of negotiation is that you negotiate with your enemies, those who have done you unspeakable harm, and who may remain determined to stymy your wishes and desires.

(Of course if you don't want to negotiate with your enemies then don't negotiate, but then don't be surprised if the de facto partition becomes permanent and you lose everything you once held dear).

Well F me Copperline, I find myself agreeing with you for once..

[denizaksulu]

I agree that the idea of guarantor powers is not only an anachronism but that it would be a dangerous one to boot. It is a proposition which - whether adopted by Turkey, Greece, UK or even EU - has all the hallmarks of a colonial condescension and colonial mentality. So getting rid of guarantor powers, getting rid of SBAs, getting rid of foreign armies is all good with me. (Complete demilitarisation even better). But I'm not going to confuse and conflate my wishes or preferences for Cyprus with how to build trust, ensure compliance, or even how to begin negotiating or bargaining.

Even if most of you agreed with my wishes (I suspect only a tiny minority, if that, actually do ) it would be naive of me to believe that these wishes would be secured instantaneously or without some tough compromise. If X fears the Turkish army's presence and Y fears the Turkish army's absence, trust and confidence is not going to be built by repeating the chant 'Turkish army out now/Turkish army here forever'. Some way around this impasse, this deadlock has to be explored although the result of that exploration may neither satisfy the absolute demands of X and/or Y. It is called negotiation. And the fundamental truth of negotiation is that you negotiate with your enemies, those who have done you unspeakable harm, and who may remain determined to stymy your wishes and desires.

(Of course if you don't want to negotiate with your enemies then don't negotiate, but then don't be surprised if the de facto partition becomes permanent and you lose everything you once held dear).

Well F me Copperline, I find myself agreeing with you for once..

This is just great. Two from opposite ends are agreeing. There is still hope.

Let us pray

[Oracle]

I agree that the idea of guarantor powers is not only an anachronism but that it would be a dangerous one to boot. It is a proposition which - whether adopted by Turkey, Greece, UK or even EU - has all the hallmarks of a colonial condescension and colonial mentality. So getting rid of guarantor powers, getting rid of SBAs, getting rid of foreign armies is all good with me. (Complete demilitarisation even better). But I'm not going to confuse and conflate my wishes or preferences for Cyprus with how to build trust, ensure compliance, or even how to begin negotiating or bargaining.

Even if most of you agreed with my wishes (I suspect only a tiny minority, if that, actually do ) it would be naive of me to believe that these wishes would be secured instantaneously or without some tough compromise. If X fears the Turkish army's presence and Y fears the Turkish army's absence, trust and confidence is not going to be built by repeating the chant 'Turkish army out now/Turkish army here forever'. Some way around this impasse, this deadlock has to be explored although the result of that exploration may neither satisfy the absolute demands of X and/or Y. It is called negotiation. And the fundamental truth of negotiation is that you negotiate with your enemies, those who have done you unspeakable harm, and who may remain determined to stymy your wishes and desires.

(Of course if you don't want to negotiate with your enemies then don't negotiate, but then don't be surprised if the de facto partition becomes permanent and you lose everything you once held dear).

Threats, blackmail, ransom notes .... keep making your illegal demands !

Soon you will have to do as you are told ....

.... too little, too late!