Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Think of it as a game of chess : it's all in the long-run calculation of options and the subsequent optimum timing of moves.

... another thing we learn about CopperLine ... he can't play chess!

What do you do CL ... save all your moves until the right time, and then move several pieces in one go at the optimum time?

[Viewpoint]

Sorry to interrupt this but I'm a bit confused. Is Kipaku GC or TC? I can probably go back to previous posts for the answer. Somethings I read make me believe he/she is GC other times a TC. Confused.

It all depends who you want to believe. Now, the partitionist and the Fascist are not use to hearing straight talk from a TC against the doings of the "TRNC's government", so therefore, it is convenient to label him as a GC, because only then what KIKAPU says will make sense. After all, no TC can possible disagree with everything that the "TRNC" does. No TC wants to unite with the GC's. No TC wants to be part of Cyprus. No TC wants to have anything to do with the GC's, so therefore, KIKAPU can only be a GC. A TC can only want a Partition, or a Racist laws such as "separate but equal" with undemocratic laws with everything shared down the middle, 50-50. No TC can possible accept True Democracy in this day and age. It is only the 21st Century for cry'n out loud. We should wait until the 25th Century before we are ready for True Democracy, so that's why KIKAPU cannot be a TC.

It doesnt matter what you say or put forward as an excuse there are many TCs who want union like Birkibrisli but noway is he like you he has stated a viewpoint where he argues points from both sides and displays no hate for all things Turkish. I have tried to point out that you are 100% on the side of GCs and therefore 100% against us the real TCs.

Here you go "Unitedwestand", you have heard it from the horses (partitionist) mouth......................I rest my case.!!!

He thought you were a GC as I had mentioned before you show those characteristics in your posts, feel proud you have embraced the pure "Cypriots" race if that exsists, why do you try to deny it?

No VP, you are not reading correctly as usual. "Unitedwestand" was not saying I was a GC. He said he was not sure if I was a TC or a GC, because he thought I could be one or the other on some post and yet again different on other posts. That is a sign of a
TRUE CYPRIOT who is well balanced with his views regarding Cyprus and it's citizens, the Cypriots. I will wear my True Cypriot badge with honours................thank you.

Btw VP, Birkibrisli is a True Cypriot, therefore he wants union with the GC's also. He and I do want the same thing as well as many other good True Turkish Cypriots on the forum. You are the one in the minority as a partitionist VP who does not want a union with the GC's, so get use to it.

I am fortunate enough to live here in the TRNC so there is no doubt I know more about how TCs feel towards GCs today than those like you who live in disphora and will probably die there without ever understanding the TCs viewpont.

Bir can want union with GCs that is not the issue here, the issue is Bir also supports and argues in favor of the TC stance where he see fit that tells us he is a TC and can argue for both sides, this is something you are unable of doing to the contrary you are 100% GC stance and therefore on their side against us...not difficult to understand or accept, whats the problem do you hate GCs so much that you don't not want to accept having arguments that reflect their beliefs 100%.

[Viewpoint]

Most GCs, it seems, see Turkey as the source of the continuing division of Cyprus. That being the case the question is surely whether Turkey in the EU is more or less likely to resolve the Cyprus division ? If you think it is less likely to solve the problem then surely you'd oppose Turkey's membership; if you thought it more likely to solve the problem then surely you'd be supporting Turkey's membership .

But there might be a prior argument about RoCs leverage. Those who think that RoC has leverage over Turkey's EU membership application in respect of the Cyprus division have to ask themselves what kind of leverage (and how much leverage) RoC has actually got. If, for example, you think that RoC's veto of Turkey's application will really be effective then what's the endgame ? A RoC veto which excluded Turkey would give Turkey no incentive at all to relinquish its hold on north Cyprus. Suppose you think that the veto threat is no more than that, a threat. Then the question is how much leverage has RoC got before its bluff is called. This is real brinkmanship - it could go horribly wrong, permanently for GCs.

Think of it as a game of chess : it's all in the long-run calculation of options and the subsequent optimum timing of moves.

Totally agree with you CopperLine. If you look closely, you will see, that it is people like Zan and VP who are the true partitionist who do not want Turkey in the EU. If Turkey does not get into the EU for what ever reason, then the partitionist feel safe that there never will be a Cyprus settlement, because Turkey will not push for one, and the present situation will remain as such, which is sweet music to the ears of the partitionist. On the other hand, the RoC knows full well, that in order to find a settlement, it requires Turkey's involvement, and for it's efforts, the RoC will not veto Turkey's entry into the EU. So I don't believe that the RoC is threatening Turkey with a veto vote into the EU unless Turkey does what the RoC wants, but rather the RoC will want to reward Turkey with a non veto vote for helping solve the Cyprus situation. The biggest NO TURKEY in the EU people are the TC Partitionist and not the GC's.

EU is Turkey's ticket for a better future for her country and it's citizens and she will not deny herself the chance to be in the EU by giving into the partitionist. I have never heard Turkey ask for partitioning of Cyprus. Lifting of embargoes, yes, but not partition. Turkey knows, that the day the "TRNC" is partitioned and it is recognised, it is the day her EU dreams are dead and gone. Turkey is not in the business of committing political suicide by denying her country EU membership over bunch of self centered, self serving, self interest partitionist who are in the minority to begin with in the "TRNC". At this point in time, Greece and Cyprus are Turkey's best friends for her EU membership, but of course, nothing comes without a cost, and the cost will be solving the Cyprus problem whether the partitionist will like it or not. The partitionist will never see the day of a partition, because no matter what any other country may say in opposing Turkey's entry into the EU now, they may in time change their attitudes towards Turkey, but if Turkey destroys her chances with the RoC now by giving into the partitionist, she will forever lose her EU membership chances.

I do not think Turkey is as dumb as the partitinist like to think so, that they will come before Turkish citizens....all 70 million of them. If the EU is so terrible as the partitionists want us to believe, then why are all the major, middle, and small countries are in it, which collectively have a GDP larger than the USA's. All these countries joined the EU club willingly and there are many more waiting in line to join. Make no mistake, that Turkey wants to join, and the RoC will help her, if Turkey helps the RoC also. As things stand now, Turkey will need to help solve the Cyprus problem before the RoC can help Turkey, so the ball is in Turkey's corner at the moment.

Turkey has recognized partition and the TRNC in 1983 what more can they do? I especially like the part in bold, Greece yes but the "RoC" no Turkey doesnt even recognize you, she refers to you as the GC administration.

The above post is a joke, the GCs entered the EU for 2 reasons and it was not for a higher GDP but first safety secondly leverage... they thought the EU will give them what they wanted but it back fired the EU told them to go to the UN and start acting more european with regards to flexibility towards the TCs...you only want Turkey to continue so that you have them in palm of your hand and squeeze them toget what you want, Everyone has to face facts Turkey is to large a country for the EU to swallow and Turkey has to many issues more important to her than little island of Cyprus, she is not a EU country and will never meet the criteria, you know this and I know this, France Germany and I are honest enough to admit this yet you are not.

[Kikapu]

I am fortunate enough to live here in the TRNC so there is no doubt I know more about how TCs feel towards GCs today than those like you who live in disphora and will probably die there without ever understanding the TCs viewpont.

Well then VP, how come the last survey of the general population showed 60% for partition and 40% against. We know that of the 60%, they were 2/3rds settlers given the TC-Settler ratios, therefore at best, you had 20% TC's for partition. Of the 40% who did not want partition, I cannot see one settler being in that group at all. So go ahead and claim that you know more than others. All you know are those who share your views and passion, which is partition. You fall into that 20% at best..case closed.

Bir can want union with GCs that is not the issue here, the issue is Bir also supports and argues in favor of the TC stance where he see fit that tells us he is a TC and can argue for both sides, this is something you are unable of doing to the contrary you are 100% GC stance and therefore on their side against us...not difficult to understand or accept, whats the problem do you hate GCs so much that you don't not want to accept having arguments that reflect their beliefs 100%.

It's not just Bir and me who wants a United Cyprus with the GC's. I would say way over 70% True TC's wants to see their island United. They don't want your type of Dictatorship of government that was taught to you by Denktash. All you true partitionist are only after power and land that does not belong to you. You have no interest in the lives and future of true TC's. You people are Morally Corrupted, therefore will do anything that is unethical to achieve their goal, and we can all see this, as you are hanging by thin thread to try and discredit me in what I say by labeling me a GC, as if that would be an insult. It's not to me, but you have just insulted your good friend Bananiot instead. Perhaps Bananiot can take some comfort to know, that you never dispute in what I say when I criticize the "TRNC" and it's leadership. Your only complaint is, I only do it to the "TRNC". So thank you for telling everyone, that I do not tell lies, but just too much truth regarding the "TRNC". Unfortunately, that's the kind of truth you don't like to hear, because it does not help you with your Partition plans. You are becoming very desperate VP, but please do continue as you are, because it seems that's all you have left. You are finished as a TC who is trying to gain partition. It will never happen. All your dreams of keeping the north for yourself as Denktask did, will not happen.

As a TC, I have been promoting True Federation where the north will have vast majority TC's, including in the local government. This is what I believe in and this is what I'm promoting. You saying that I do not promote anything good about TC's falls flat on it's face, because I'm promoting peace with True Federation, where as you are promoting hate and division. When it comes to promote anything TC when it involves violation of others Human Rights, violation of others Democratic Rights, and promoting Racist Injustices, you are right, I do not promote those. It is not to say, that any decent TC has asked me to promote those things, but it appears, that is exactly what is expected of me by the Morally Corrupted Partitionist.....Sorry, no can do, so go ahead and use what ever label you want. I don't expect anything less from a desperate people such as yourself. You only diminish any credibility or intelligence you think you have. I'm glad to see other good TC's on this board starting to put you in your place with your inaccurate statements about Cyprus and Cypriots. You know what I'm talking about. It must feel fairly lonely at the top these days for you VP. You'll get use to it.

[Kikapu]

VP,

Turkey has recognized partition and the TRNC in 1983 what more can they do? I especially like the part in bold, Greece yes but the "RoC" no Turkey doesnt even recognize you, she refers to you as the GC administration.

Yes I know Turkey recognizes the "TRNC". What choice did she have, She created it, so had to recognize it too, but I'm sure with many regrets since then. As the saying goes "that baby is so ugly, only a mother can love". But that was in the good old days when Cyprus was not in the EU and was very insignificant. Well, things are a little different now I think. Turkey needs Cyprus much more than she needs the "TRNC" and as time goes, you too will come to this realisation, no matter what the past events has been between Turkey and the RoC.

The above post is a joke, the GCs entered the EU for 2 reasons and it was not for a higher GDP but first safety secondly leverage... they thought the EU will give them what they wanted but it back fired the EU told them to go to the UN and start acting more european with regards to flexibility towards the TCs...you only want Turkey to continue so that you have them in palm of your hand and squeeze them toget what you want, Everyone has to face facts Turkey is to large a country for the EU to swallow and Turkey has to many issues more important to her than little island of Cyprus, she is not a EU country and will never meet the criteria, you know this and I know this, France Germany and I are honest enough to admit this yet you are not.

Just because it is not Turkey's time right now to be in the EU, it does not mean her time will not come later. Turkey's leadership has not dismissed their desires to join the EU, so why should I. You want to dismiss it, because Turkey's EU ambitions are a threat to your partition dreams. One thing about Turks, they are determined when they want something, and they want the EU. If not the EU, what else is going to help their nation, their Islamic brothers from the Middle East. I don't think so. The Turks want to be Europeans. They even have one corner of their car license number plates painted BLUE, just like EU member state countries. And lets not forget that they were warned by the EU, for Turkey not to make their New Currency coins to be too close to the EU currency. I believe the new Turkish coins are fairly close to that of the EU. So you see VP, the Turks already believe they are in the EU.

As long as Turkey wants to be in the EU, then Cyprus will play their hand accordingly. It does not take a genius to figure that one out. When the time comes, Turkey will kiss and make up with the RoC, and it will be sooner rather than later, because time is running out fast for Turkey to beat the clock with her next meeting with her EU chapters. Perhaps that is the reason why it is urged to get a settlement this year in Cyprus. As for Germany and France, has always been the case of not wanting Turkey in, along with couple of others. Time does not stand still, therefore tomorrow is another day where anything can happen, and it will. So go ahead and wish Turkey all the bad luck if you want for her not to get into the EU, but you will not be heard by her. If Cyprus was insignificant one time in the eyes of Turkey, the partitionist are even less today versus her EU ambitions.

[Viewpoint]

I am fortunate enough to live here in the TRNC so there is no doubt I know more about how TCs feel towards GCs today than those like you who live in disphora and will probably die there without ever understanding the TCs viewpont.

Well then VP, how come the last survey of the general population showed 60% for partition and 40% against. We know that of the 60%, they were 2/3rds settlers given the TC-Settler ratios, therefore at best, you had 20% TC's for partition. Of the 40% who did not want partition, I cannot see one settler being in that group at all. So go ahead and claim that you know more than others. All you know are those who share your views and passion, which is partition. You fall into that 20% at best..case closed.

Bir can want union with GCs that is not the issue here, the issue is Bir also supports and argues in favor of the TC stance where he see fit that tells us he is a TC and can argue for both sides, this is something you are unable of doing to the contrary you are 100% GC stance and therefore on their side against us...not difficult to understand or accept, whats the problem do you hate GCs so much that you don't not want to accept having arguments that reflect their beliefs 100%.

It's not just Bir and me who wants a United Cyprus with the GC's. I would say way over 70% True TC's wants to see their island United. They don't want your type of Dictatorship of government that was taught to you by Denktash. All you true partitionist are only after power and land that does not belong to you. You have no interest in the lives and future of true TC's. You people are Morally Corrupted, therefore will do anything that is unethical to achieve their goal, and we can all see this, as you are hanging by thin thread to try and discredit me in what I say by labeling me a GC, as if that would be an insult. It's not to me, but you have just insulted your good friend Bananiot instead. Perhaps Bananiot can take some comfort to know, that you never dispute in what I say when I criticize the "TRNC" and it's leadership. Your only complaint is, I only do it to the "TRNC". So thank you for telling everyone, that I do not tell lies, but just too much truth regarding the "TRNC". Unfortunately, that's the kind of truth you don't like to hear, because it does not help you with your Partition plans. You are becoming very desperate VP, but please do continue as you are, because it seems that's all you have left. You are finished as a TC who is trying to gain partition. It will never happen. All your dreams of keeping the north for yourself as Denktask did, will not happen.

As a TC, I have been promoting True Federation where the north will have vast majority TC's, including in the local government. This is what I believe in and this is what I'm promoting. You saying that I do not promote anything good about TC's falls flat on it's face, because I'm promoting peace with True Federation, where as you are promoting hate and division. When it comes to promote anything TC when it involves violation of others Human Rights, violation of others Democratic Rights, and promoting Racist Injustices, you are right, I do not promote those. It is not to say, that any decent TC has asked me to promote those things, but it appears, that is exactly what is expected of me by the Morally Corrupted Partitionist.....Sorry, no can do, so go ahead and use what ever label you want. I don't expect anything less from a desperate people such as yourself. You only diminish any credibility or intelligence you think you have. I'm glad to see other good TC's on this board starting to put you in your place with your inaccurate statements about Cyprus and Cypriots. You know what I'm talking about. It must feel fairly lonely at the top these days for you VP. You'll get use to it.

The bottom line that infuriates is that TCs prefer what they have today even with all its imperfections as the alternative a minority in a GC state is totally unacceptable, without a clear cut plan that addresses our concerns and provides safeguards to protect our rights we will not be going anywhere. The GCs are unprepared to grant us what we wish as they do not want abide by any plans that will not allow them free range to dominate and rule this country without our contribution.

When will you realize that the chasm is to wide and will never be bridged because both sides want different things a plus to a GC is a minus to a TC so the next round of talks will also break down and stall just like in the past, will you then accept that we have the solution which is what we have today division.

[Viewpoint]

VP,

Turkey has recognized partition and the TRNC in 1983 what more can they do? I especially like the part in bold, Greece yes but the "RoC" no Turkey doesnt even recognize you, she refers to you as the GC administration.

Yes I know Turkey recognizes the "TRNC". What choice did she have, She created it, so had to recognize it too, but I'm sure with many regrets since then. As the saying goes "that baby is so ugly, only a mother can love". But that was in the good old days when Cyprus was not in the EU and was very insignificant. Well, things are a little different now I think. Turkey needs Cyprus much more than she needs the "TRNC" and as time goes, you too will come to this realisation, no matter what the past events has been between Turkey and the RoC.

The above post is a joke, the GCs entered the EU for 2 reasons and it was not for a higher GDP but first safety secondly leverage... they thought the EU will give them what they wanted but it back fired the EU told them to go to the UN and start acting more european with regards to flexibility towards the TCs...you only want Turkey to continue so that you have them in palm of your hand and squeeze them toget what you want, Everyone has to face facts Turkey is to large a country for the EU to swallow and Turkey has to many issues more important to her than little island of Cyprus, she is not a EU country and will never meet the criteria, you know this and I know this, France Germany and I are honest enough to admit this yet you are not.

Just because it is not Turkey's time right now to be in the EU, it does not mean her time will not come later. Turkey's leadership has not dismissed their desires to join the EU, so why should I. You want to dismiss it, because Turkey's EU ambitions are a threat to your partition dreams. One thing about Turks, they are determined when they want something, and they want the EU. If not the EU, what else is going to help their nation, their Islamic brothers from the Middle East. I don't think so. The Turks want to be Europeans. They even have one corner of their car license number plates painted BLUE, just like EU member state countries. And lets not forget that they were warned by the EU, for Turkey not to make their New Currency coins to be too close to the EU currency. I believe the new Turkish coins are fairly close to that of the EU. So you see VP, the Turks already believe they are in the EU.

As long as Turkey wants to be in the EU, then Cyprus will play their hand accordingly. It does not take a genius to figure that one out. When the time comes, Turkey will kiss and make up with the RoC, and it will be sooner rather than later, because time is running out fast for Turkey to beat the clock with her next meeting with her EU chapters. Perhaps that is the reason why it is urged to get a settlement this year in Cyprus. As for Germany and France, has always been the case of not wanting Turkey in, along with couple of others. Time does not stand still, therefore tomorrow is another day where anything can happen, and it will. So go ahead and wish Turkey all the bad luck if you want for her not to get into the EU, but you will not be heard by her. If Cyprus was insignificant one time in the eyes of Turkey, the partitionist are even less today versus her EU ambitions.

You have a knack of making things up as you along then you turn around and believe what you have written, the bottom line is that all we have to do is wait and see who was right, Turkey will not enter the EU and division will remain, the past 34 years proves me right, you have nothing to back you up as the only opportunity you had to build a united Cyprus it didnt work.

[Kikapu]

The bottom line that infuriates is that TCs prefer what they have today even with all its imperfections as the alternative a minority in a GC state is totally unacceptable, without a clear cut plan that addresses our concerns and provides safeguards to protect our rights we will not be going anywhere. The GCs are unprepared to grant us what we wish as they do not want abide by any plans that will not allow them free range to dominate and rule this country without our contribution.

When will you realize that the chasm is to wide and will never be bridged because both sides want different things a plus to a GC is a minus to a TC so the next round of talks will also break down and stall just like in the past, will you then accept that we have the solution which is what we have today division.

The bottom line is VP, that the TC's need to be realistic as to what it is going to take to have a solution. Unfortunately, the Annan Plan had given way too much, in fact, way over the top of "goodies" to the TC's in 2004 and anything less than that now, will be seen by the TC's as unacceptable or giving in to the GC demands. We all know how spoilt kids act when they are given everything, and once their "goodies" are taken away, they act like brats. No one questions you in wanting safeguards and protection of every one's rights, but just what are those safeguards that you are talking about, that will make a reasonable person say,
"yes, that is a reasonable request, and if I were in their shoes, I would want the same thing also" but without violating any one's Human and Democratic Rights. We are either going to be part of Europe and the West and start practicing True Democracy, or else lets adopt a "Banana Republic" system where the government changes hand depending which of the rebels is much stronger and more brutal than the last one. If the demands are anything what AP 2004 was asking, then rest assured that there will not be a settlement, because most of the demands were above what a reasonable person will ask for. It does not take a brain surgeon to figure that one out. Once again, I blame the AP 2004 for intentionally giving the TC's overinflated hopes that it was going to be a great plan for everyone. Well, it wasn't great for everyone, and had it passed, we ( Cyprus-Cypriots) would be in worse situation today than we already are. It would have been much worse than the 1960 agreements, and we know how long that one lasted.

[Kikapu]

You have a knack of making things up as you along then you turn around and believe what you have written, the bottom line is that all we have to do is wait and see who was right, Turkey will not enter the EU and division will remain, the past 34 years proves me right, you have nothing to back you up as the only opportunity you had to build a united Cyprus it didnt work.

You need to tell us what it is that I make up as I go along........we all want to know.!!

Only the last 4 years of 34 years where a settlement was sought. The first 30 years, Denktash and Turkey were not interested, because 37% of Cyprus was in their hands, and if they waited long enough, then recognition would come. What came instead, was the acceptance of Cyprus into the EU in 2004 which got things moving on the ground, starting with the opening of the crossings as a goodwill gesture to try and get the AP passed. Even Denktash was sidelined for that reason, because he was so hated. Once the AP was a NO, then panic started to set in with Turkey's EU bid, and now, for the first time in 34 years, we have a chance to put past mistakes aside and look for a settlement that's good for majority of Cypriots and also for Turkey's EU aspirations. So do not mislead people with your 34 years proof that peace can't be achieved, because peace was not sought in the first 30 years. You can thank Denktash for that, since his belief was, that Cyprus problem has been solved in 1974.

[Viewpoint]

The bottom line that infuriates is that TCs prefer what they have today even with all its imperfections as the alternative a minority in a GC state is totally unacceptable, without a clear cut plan that addresses our concerns and provides safeguards to protect our rights we will not be going anywhere. The GCs are unprepared to grant us what we wish as they do not want abide by any plans that will not allow them free range to dominate and rule this country without our contribution.

When will you realize that the chasm is to wide and will never be bridged because both sides want different things a plus to a GC is a minus to a TC so the next round of talks will also break down and stall just like in the past, will you then accept that we have the solution which is what we have today division.

The bottom line is VP, that the TC's need to be realistic as to what it is going to take to have a solution. Unfortunately, the Annan Plan had given way too much, in fact, way over the top of "goodies" to the TC's in 2004 and anything less than that now, will be seen by the TC's as unacceptable or giving in to the GC demands. We all know how spoilt kids act when they are given everything, and once their "goodies" are taken away, they act like brats. No one questions you in wanting safeguards and protection of every one's rights, but just what are those safeguards that you are talking about, that will make a reasonable person say,
"yes, that is a reasonable request, and if I were in their shoes, I would want the same thing also" but without violating any one's Human and Democratic Rights. We are either going to be part of Europe and the West and start practicing True Democracy, or else lets adopt a "Banana Republic" system where the government changes hand depending which of the rebels is much stronger and more brutal than the last one. If the demands are anything what AP 2004 was asking, then rest assured that there will not be a settlement, because most of the demands were above what a reasonable person will ask for. It does not take a brain surgeon to figure that one out. Once again, I blame the AP 2004 for intentionally giving the TC's overinflated hopes that it was going to be a great plan for everyone. Well, it wasn't great for everyone, and had it passed, we ( Cyprus-Cypriots) would be in worse situation today than we already are. It would have been much worse than the 1960 agreements, and we know how long that one lasted.

I have repeated time and time again what TCs want to agree a solution but according to your "true democracy" theory this is impossible so I do not see any point in going over the same things with you over and over again, you want x and I want y although letters of the alphabet they are totally different, the chasm is obviously to wide to bridge and we should all realize this and accept that this is about as good as it will ever get for a good many years to come.