Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Sorry to interrupt this but I'm a bit confused. Is Kipaku GC or TC? I can probably go back to previous posts for the answer. Somethings I read make me believe he/she is GC other times a TC. Confused.

It all depends who you want to believe. Now, the partitionist and the Fascist are not use to hearing straight talk from a TC against the doings of the "TRNC's government", so therefore, it is convenient to label him as a GC, because only then what KIKAPU says will make sense. After all, no TC can possible disagree with everything that the "TRNC" does. No TC wants to unite with the GC's. No TC wants to be part of Cyprus. No TC wants to have anything to do with the GC's, so therefore, KIKAPU can only be a GC. A TC can only want a Partition, or a Racist laws such as "separate but equal" with undemocratic laws with everything shared down the middle, 50-50. No TC can possible accept True Democracy in this day and age. It is only the 21st Century for cry'n out loud. We should wait until the 25th Century before we are ready for True Democracy, so that's why KIKAPU cannot be a TC.

It doesnt matter what you say or put forward as an excuse there are many TCs who want union like Birkibrisli but noway is he like you he has stated a viewpoint where he argues points from both sides and displays no hate for all things Turkish. I have tried to point out that you are 100% on the side of GCs and therefore 100% against us the real TCs.

Here you go "Unitedwestand", you have heard it from the horses (partitionist) mouth......................I rest my case.!!!

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

VP,

And I was hoping to be invited along with Miltiades for a lovely Cypriot home cooking at your house as soon as peace deal is signed to celebrate a new beginning for Cyprus.

Now you made me lose my apetite after your above post.

Looks like Miltiades and me will be eating alone afterall.

You are right but Im sure it doesnt mean much and look on the bright side you have each other you dont me.

Just a little reminder VP, that you do not own the land that the "TRNC" sits on, so do not assume you will be granted that land to have your "new country" through partition and be recognised and be in the EU. The self declared Independence in 1984 has not even allowed you to play a friendly football match with a crap team like Luton Town. If that is your idea of independence, begging everyone to open their doors to you diplomatically, rather than be a proud nation as others in the West, just because you do not want to live in the 21st century under True Democracy.

1983 actually thats how TC you are, we will hold onto 37% and go about our lives while you go about yours. Even with all its faults the TCs prefer the TRNC to accepting wat you have in store for us a minority in a GC state if thats a proud nation in the 21st century give me isoaltion any day, when will you realize thats how strong we feel.

My country has always been and always will be Cyprus, and the part that your house sits on, is still part of my country. You can divide yourself from the land if you want, but you have no right or ability to divide me from my country.

If it makes you happy then go ahead doesnt change the reality in front of you, you couldnt even visit 37% of "your country".

VP,

We'll talk more as things develop with the peace process VP. I don't want to fight you. I know that's what you want, to fight another TC who is a True Cypriot and you as a Partitionist who cannot relate to, other than try and claim other Cypriots land by force. That plan was working just fine for the first 30 years, until the year 2004 when the earth shook under your feet when the whole island of Cyprus was entered into the EU, and since then it has been one Political Shenanigan after another on how to undo that "damage". It's not going to work VP, so give it up. The tables has turned since 2004. All you are doing is just buying time for the tables to turn again, but the end results will be the same. The last 24 years should be enough evidence that partition has not worked for you. It's time for you to come home VP, and that home is called Cyprus.

We will talk more and I will be proven right yet again when talks break down or either side says no, the status quo is about as good as it will get you to will come to realize this over time.

As for the EU it didnt bring the magical solution the GCs sold the AP out for and they constantly refer to the UN for a solution so I see the EU solving anything, its appears we will be around for a long time to come as the TRNC.

It's not a question of the EU solving the Cyprus problem VP, but Cyprus being in the EU has changed the course of history on what Denktash had intended, which was to have no peace forever and go for recognition and Independence on land taken from 200,000 GC's, because he had gotten what he wanted and the Turkish army there to protect what he has gotten, and the first 30 years of keeping the North closed off from the south is a testament to that fact. Only when it became clear that Cyprus was on it's way into the EU, things had started to change on the ground and the AP 2004 was going to take care of that EU problem once and for all. Well, that dream fell apart and now the GC's are more suspicious of any moves for peace and are going to make sure that no 2004 AP type of plan is going to ever be put on the table again. It is either going to be a plan fair for both sides, or no EU for the "TRNC" or Turkey, whether in the next 10 years or 100 years. Sooner you accept this fact the sooner we will have a United Cyprus where everyone will benefit.

[Viewpoint]

Sorry to interrupt this but I'm a bit confused. Is Kipaku GC or TC? I can probably go back to previous posts for the answer. Somethings I read make me believe he/she is GC other times a TC. Confused.

It all depends who you want to believe. Now, the partitionist and the Fascist are not use to hearing straight talk from a TC against the doings of the "TRNC's government", so therefore, it is convenient to label him as a GC, because only then what KIKAPU says will make sense. After all, no TC can possible disagree with everything that the "TRNC" does. No TC wants to unite with the GC's. No TC wants to be part of Cyprus. No TC wants to have anything to do with the GC's, so therefore, KIKAPU can only be a GC. A TC can only want a Partition, or a Racist laws such as "separate but equal" with undemocratic laws with everything shared down the middle, 50-50. No TC can possible accept True Democracy in this day and age. It is only the 21st Century for cry'n out loud. We should wait until the 25th Century before we are ready for True Democracy, so that's why KIKAPU cannot be a TC.

It doesnt matter what you say or put forward as an excuse there are many TCs who want union like Birkibrisli but noway is he like you he has stated a viewpoint where he argues points from both sides and displays no hate for all things Turkish. I have tried to point out that you are 100% on the side of GCs and therefore 100% against us the real TCs.

Here you go "Unitedwestand", you have heard it from the horses (partitionist) mouth......................I rest my case.!!!

He thought you were a GC as I had mentioned before you show those characteristics in your posts, feel proud you have embraced the pure "Cypriots" race if that exsists, why do you try to deny it?

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

VP,

And I was hoping to be invited along with Miltiades for a lovely Cypriot home cooking at your house as soon as peace deal is signed to celebrate a new beginning for Cyprus.

Now you made me lose my apetite after your above post.

Looks like Miltiades and me will be eating alone afterall.

You are right but Im sure it doesnt mean much and look on the bright side you have each other you dont me.

Just a little reminder VP, that you do not own the land that the "TRNC" sits on, so do not assume you will be granted that land to have your "new country" through partition and be recognised and be in the EU. The self declared Independence in 1984 has not even allowed you to play a friendly football match with a crap team like Luton Town. If that is your idea of independence, begging everyone to open their doors to you diplomatically, rather than be a proud nation as others in the West, just because you do not want to live in the 21st century under True Democracy.

1983 actually thats how TC you are, we will hold onto 37% and go about our lives while you go about yours. Even with all its faults the TCs prefer the TRNC to accepting wat you have in store for us a minority in a GC state if thats a proud nation in the 21st century give me isoaltion any day, when will you realize thats how strong we feel.

My country has always been and always will be Cyprus, and the part that your house sits on, is still part of my country. You can divide yourself from the land if you want, but you have no right or ability to divide me from my country.

If it makes you happy then go ahead doesnt change the reality in front of you, you couldnt even visit 37% of "your country".

VP,

We'll talk more as things develop with the peace process VP. I don't want to fight you. I know that's what you want, to fight another TC who is a True Cypriot and you as a Partitionist who cannot relate to, other than try and claim other Cypriots land by force. That plan was working just fine for the first 30 years, until the year 2004 when the earth shook under your feet when the whole island of Cyprus was entered into the EU, and since then it has been one Political Shenanigan after another on how to undo that "damage". It's not going to work VP, so give it up. The tables has turned since 2004. All you are doing is just buying time for the tables to turn again, but the end results will be the same. The last 24 years should be enough evidence that partition has not worked for you. It's time for you to come home VP, and that home is called Cyprus.

We will talk more and I will be proven right yet again when talks break down or either side says no, the status quo is about as good as it will get you to will come to realize this over time.

As for the EU it didnt bring the magical solution the GCs sold the AP out for and they constantly refer to the UN for a solution so I see the EU solving anything, its appears we will be around for a long time to come as the TRNC.

It's not a question of the EU solving the Cyprus problem VP, but Cyprus being in the EU has changed the course of history on what Denktash had intended, which was to have no peace forever and go for recognition and Independence on land taken from 200,000 GC's, because he had gotten what he wanted and the Turkish army there to protect what he has gotten, and the first 30 years of keeping the North closed off from the south is a testament to that fact. Only when it became clear that Cyprus was on it's way into the EU, things had started to change on the ground and the AP 2004 was going to take care of that EU problem once and for all. Well, that dream fell apart and now the GC's are more suspicious of any moves for peace and are going to make sure that no 2004 AP type of plan is going to ever be put on the table again. It is either going to be a plan fair for both sides, or no EU for the "TRNC" or Turkey, whether in the next 10 years or 100 years. Sooner you accept this fact the sooner we will have a United Cyprus where everyone will benefit.

Lets talk straight here Turkey will never enter the EU, it is not a European country and does not have the capacity to meet the criteria pur before he r especially when the goal posts will be changed, do you see Turkey rushing to meet criteria? So using that as an excuse to say if we do not yield to GC demands Turkey will never enter the EU, well thats was never going to happen anyway, sorry to have to inform you that the GCs leverage is null and void.

Yes the GCs entering th EU has been a good thing for us, they have in fact shot themselves in the foot and EU officials have to take us into account when visitng the TRNC, stand in front of our flag and talks with our officals. They cannot make us do anything and wait in the government offices of the TRNC where no one really takes them seriously, not in the south where they have to toe the line or else they will get their wrists slapped. They have taken into the EU one of the biggest problems which will plague them for many years to come, time will show and teach the EU the GC attitude towards TCs, the mask dropped shortly after their entry and their credibilty levels have taken a nose dive for lieing and blackmailing their way inand placing a hot patato in the lap of the EU.

[CopperLine]

Most GCs, it seems, see Turkey as the source of the continuing division of Cyprus. That being the case the question is surely whether Turkey in the EU is more or less likely to resolve the Cyprus division ? If you think it is less likely to solve the problem then surely you'd oppose Turkey's membership; if you thought it more likely to solve the problem then surely you'd be supporting Turkey's membership .

But there might be a prior argument about RoCs leverage. Those who think that RoC has leverage over Turkey's EU membership application in respect of the Cyprus division have to ask themselves what kind of leverage (and how much leverage) RoC has actually got. If, for example, you think that RoC's veto of Turkey's application will really be effective then what's the endgame ? A RoC veto which excluded Turkey would give Turkey no incentive at all to relinquish its hold on north Cyprus. Suppose you think that the veto threat is no more than that, a threat. Then the question is how much leverage has RoC got before its bluff is called. This is real brinkmanship - it could go horribly wrong, permanently for GCs.

Think of it as a game of chess : it's all in the long-run calculation of options and the subsequent optimum timing of moves.

[pantheman]

Most GCs, it seems, see Turkey as the source of the continuing division of Cyprus. That being the case the question is surely whether Turkey in the EU is more or less likely to resolve the Cyprus division ? If you think it is less likely to solve the problem then surely you'd oppose Turkey's membership; if you thought it more likely to solve the problem then surely you'd be supporting Turkey's membership .

But there might be a prior argument about RoCs leverage. Those who think that RoC has leverage over Turkey's EU membership application in respect of the Cyprus division have to ask themselves what kind of leverage (and how much leverage) RoC has actually got. If, for example, you think that RoC's veto of Turkey's application will really be effective then what's the endgame ? A RoC veto which excluded Turkey would give Turkey no incentive at all to relinquish its hold on north Cyprus. Suppose you think that the veto threat is no more than that, a threat. Then the question is how much leverage has RoC got before its bluff is called. This is real brinkmanship - it could go horribly wrong, permanently for GCs.

Think of it as a game of chess : it's all in the long-run calculation of options and the subsequent optimum timing of moves.

Copperline,

Your comments are immaterial are far as Turkeys EU aspirations go. Turkey is not and never will be in a position to join the EU, well not anytime soon anyway. I don't believe for one minute that the RoC joined the EU for leverage as you put it, surely even an intelligent person such as yourself can see that. We want the Cyprus problem solved now not in 50 years time when turkey has become somewhat civilised enough to join.

Seriously, you goit the state prosecutor going to the high court to ban the current ruling party and the are the government for christs sake. What kind of people are we dealing with here? We have a General in the military who dictates to the government and makes democracy a laughing stock. Do you honestly think that these are the principles that the EU is built on? Do you see ANY corrolation between Turkeys internal behaviour and the EU requirements?

Come on, so no its not for the leverage, RoC reasons are probably more from a security/economic point of view. Hell the UK ain't going to help us, Turkey sure ain't going to, Greece have too much business interest with Turkey now to even bother, so we need to turn to someone.

Who knows maybe one the balance of power may change, its a long shot yes, but we can always hope. For as long as you have the likes of VP,ZAN, Eric, Bananiot,big al and a few foreigners like Nurgary, Observer, et al this problem is not going to be easy to sort out.

What we need is law and order, respect for human rights, return of property to rightful owners and NO troops or external interferences.

Have a good night

[CopperLine]

Pantheman
You misunderstand my post, I think. I wasn't necessarily saying that I believe that RoC has leverage or that Turkey is incorrigable. I was trying to say that if one believes that RoC has leverage then such and such would follow.

As it happens I agree with you about the problems that Turkey faces vis. EU membership even if there was no Cyprus issue to complicate matters. But then as I've said many times on this forum the best way to help Turks struggle against repression and brutality in Turkey (or elsewhere) is to make common cause with Turkish democrats, anti-fascists and anti-nationalists. And I stand by that argument in relation to Cyprus as well.

Because Talat and Christofias are both from socialist backgrounds - and are not driven by the bitter nationalism of their respective predecessors - I think there is a little more room for hope ... but only a little more room.

You wrote

What we need is law and order, respect for human rights, return of property to rightful owners and NO troops or external interferences.

I agree entirely, but this is not the problem. The problem is first whether we have the same idea as to what each of these needs are and second how do we secure and ensure that these things are realised.

[Kikapu]

Most GCs, it seems, see Turkey as the source of the continuing division of Cyprus. That being the case the question is surely whether Turkey in the EU is more or less likely to resolve the Cyprus division ? If you think it is less likely to solve the problem then surely you'd oppose Turkey's membership; if you thought it more likely to solve the problem then surely you'd be supporting Turkey's membership .

But there might be a prior argument about RoCs leverage. Those who think that RoC has leverage over Turkey's EU membership application in respect of the Cyprus division have to ask themselves what kind of leverage (and how much leverage) RoC has actually got. If, for example, you think that RoC's veto of Turkey's application will really be effective then what's the endgame ? A RoC veto which excluded Turkey would give Turkey no incentive at all to relinquish its hold on north Cyprus. Suppose you think that the veto threat is no more than that, a threat. Then the question is how much leverage has RoC got before its bluff is called. This is real brinkmanship - it could go horribly wrong, permanently for GCs.

Think of it as a game of chess : it's all in the long-run calculation of options and the subsequent optimum timing of moves.

Totally agree with you CopperLine. If you look closely, you will see, that it is people like Zan and VP who are the true partitionist who do not want Turkey in the EU. If Turkey does not get into the EU for what ever reason, then the partitionist feel safe that there never will be a Cyprus settlement, because Turkey will not push for one, and the present situation will remain as such, which is sweet music to the ears of the partitionist. On the other hand, the RoC knows full well, that in order to find a settlement, it requires Turkey's involvement, and for it's efforts, the RoC will not veto Turkey's entry into the EU. So I don't believe that the RoC is threatening Turkey with a veto vote into the EU unless Turkey does what the RoC wants, but rather the RoC will want to reward Turkey with a non veto vote for helping solve the Cyprus situation. The biggest NO TURKEY in the EU people are the TC Partitionist and not the GC's.

EU is Turkey's ticket for a better future for her country and it's citizens and she will not deny herself the chance to be in the EU by giving into the partitionist. I have never heard Turkey ask for partitioning of Cyprus. Lifting of embargoes, yes, but not partition. Turkey knows, that the day the "TRNC" is partitioned and it is recognised, it is the day her EU dreams are dead and gone. Turkey is not in the business of committing political suicide by denying her country EU membership over bunch of self centered, self serving, self interest partitionist who are in the minority to begin with in the "TRNC". At this point in time, Greece and Cyprus are Turkey's best friends for her EU membership, but of course, nothing comes without a cost, and the cost will be solving the Cyprus problem whether the partitionist will like it or not. The partitionist will never see the day of a partition, because no matter what any other country may say in opposing Turkey's entry into the EU now, they may in time change their attitudes towards Turkey, but if Turkey destroys her chances with the RoC now by giving into the partitionist, she will forever lose her EU membership chances.

I do not think Turkey is as dumb as the partitinist like to think so, that they will come before Turkish citizens....all 70 million of them. If the EU is so terrible as the partitionists want us to believe, then why are all the major, middle, and small countries are in it, which collectively have a GDP larger than the USA's. All these countries joined the EU club willingly and there are many more waiting in line to join. Make no mistake, that Turkey wants to join, and the RoC will help her, if Turkey helps the RoC also. As things stand now, Turkey will need to help solve the Cyprus problem before the RoC can help Turkey, so the ball is in Turkey's corner at the moment.

[Kikapu]

Sorry to interrupt this but I'm a bit confused. Is Kipaku GC or TC? I can probably go back to previous posts for the answer. Somethings I read make me believe he/she is GC other times a TC. Confused.

It all depends who you want to believe. Now, the partitionist and the Fascist are not use to hearing straight talk from a TC against the doings of the "TRNC's government", so therefore, it is convenient to label him as a GC, because only then what KIKAPU says will make sense. After all, no TC can possible disagree with everything that the "TRNC" does. No TC wants to unite with the GC's. No TC wants to be part of Cyprus. No TC wants to have anything to do with the GC's, so therefore, KIKAPU can only be a GC. A TC can only want a Partition, or a Racist laws such as "separate but equal" with undemocratic laws with everything shared down the middle, 50-50. No TC can possible accept True Democracy in this day and age. It is only the 21st Century for cry'n out loud. We should wait until the 25th Century before we are ready for True Democracy, so that's why KIKAPU cannot be a TC.

It doesnt matter what you say or put forward as an excuse there are many TCs who want union like Birkibrisli but noway is he like you he has stated a viewpoint where he argues points from both sides and displays no hate for all things Turkish. I have tried to point out that you are 100% on the side of GCs and therefore 100% against us the real TCs.

Here you go "Unitedwestand", you have heard it from the horses (partitionist) mouth......................I rest my case.!!!

He thought you were a GC as I had mentioned before you show those characteristics in your posts, feel proud you have embraced the pure "Cypriots" race if that exsists, why do you try to deny it?

No VP, you are not reading correctly as usual. "Unitedwestand" was not saying I was a GC. He said he was not sure if I was a TC or a GC, because he thought I could be one or the other on some post and yet again different on other posts. That is a sign of a
TRUE CYPRIOT who is well balanced with his views regarding Cyprus and it's citizens, the Cypriots. I will wear my True Cypriot badge with honours................thank you.

Btw VP, Birkibrisli is a True Cypriot, therefore he wants union with the GC's also. He and I do want the same thing as well as many other good True Turkish Cypriots on the forum. You are the one in the minority as a partitionist VP who does not want a union with the GC's, so get use to it.

[Nikitas]

Cyprus, like Greece, supports Turkey's EU membership bid. The hope, expressed by both countries, is that the mechanics of membership, both in the process and in the actual status of a member, will preclude behavior inconsistent with European states and thus somehow automatcally end the problems both countries have with Turkey.

In the case of Greece there is the casus belli declared by Turkey in case Greece exercises the legal right to extend territorial waters to 12 miles, ( a right which Greece did not pursue but results from international law), and the almost daily violations of sea and air space. In Cyprus the problem is obvious, no Eu state can occupy territory of another EU state and refuse recognition of that state, etc.

Neither Greece nor Cyprus have hinted at using vetoes. Nor are they willing to be used as a shield by others in the Eu to prevent Turkish membership.

Personally, I do not place much faith in the automatic effect the process wil have on Turkey. Dismantling the deep state apparatus inside Turkey takes a lot more than mere membership in the EU. It is unlikely that a Turkish head of government will ever be able (in or out of the EU) to pick up the phone and fire the chief of the armed forces., something which can happen in other nations and happened in Greece after the Imia incident. For that to happen there has to be a radical change in Turkey regardless of EU or other external pressures.