Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Hey VP...you are really the victim here.....we all got your point!!! The only thing you want is partition. You are defending the turkish state in all your postings. If you would have the balls as a turkish cypriot and saying that you do not recognise the RoC why accept their passports and their benefits?????? Fucking hypocrits. Go for the united Cyprus and stop reffering to the past. No solution means isolation for the coming 34 years and no Turkey in the EU. If that is what you hope for we will discuss this issue again in the coming future.

wallace you still havent got it have you, I am partionist everyone knows this. Turkey will not get in the EU and there will be no unification solution in Cyprus because Turkey is not an EU country and will never meet the criteria and the chasm between the 2 communities is to wide to bridge as the is no goodwill to compromise, we do not have the capacity or vision to find a solution and the best we deserve is what we have today.

Well......a great deal of people think differently then you and I'm glad they do. It seems that there is only one that doesn't want to compromise.....and that is you. That's your right and finally your problem.
What will you do when your wishes do NOT come through? Are you able to life with that? Will you adopt or are you 1 of these that will do anything to create trouble because your wishes did not come through?

People on both sides of the divide support me indirectly as everything they do or say produces the division we have today. Only over the last week have I heard anything positive coming out of a leaders mouth that would indicate that he cares about the other community or acknowledges their concerns.

If unification was desired people would work for it not make excuses and the last 48 and counting prove me right every time.

[Kikapu]

VP,

Kikapu whether a "true federation" or a confederation evolves only time will tell if these talks ever get off the ground but the fact is that the first attempt was more along the lines of how 65% of TCs perceive BBF, so any major changes that will effect this perception negatively will bring with it rejection this time from the TC camp, will you then kindly support our right to say no just like the GCs?

The 65% may have wanted Confederation and maintaining that "yes" vote will be important towards True Federation, and if they said "NO" to True Federation, it will be their right, hence there won't be peace and the status qua will continue, and my cousin's husbands words will once again surface, when he said, that the TC's voted for the Annan plan and not for peace. If the TC's do not see a True Federation as an option for peace, then peace was never intended in voting "yes" for AP in 2004, because peace was not the center piece of their vote, but what it meant to have 2 states in a Confederacy under loose central government. But what you seem to forget is, that even greater numbers, 75% of GC's said "NO" to Confederation which you have demonised over and over again. This is why I believe, if the TC's and GC's will want to have peace, then meeting half way will be a good place to start, and that place I believe is True Federation, since one side cannot have Confederation and the other side cannot have Unitary state.

The traitor issue has hit a raw nerve me thinks, but why it came about in your case was purely based on a traitor who stabs his own people in the back and sides with opposition, not even once saying anything in favor of people who have also suffered and have concerns and fears that need to be addressed, you whole argument is based on TCs being 100% wrong and the we should yield to GC rule, all we ask for is safeguards to ensure we are not pushed to one side by a community with whom we have not shared political power for 45 years. You need to show you can see things from a TCs angel if you are indeed one because everything you argue for smells of the GC camp as like them you promote a system that would allow GCs to manipulate matters into their own hands and where we will be a minority in our own country

.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you have not hit any nerve with me. You should know that by now that words and labels are ineffective for you to try and win arguments with me. I'm just entertaining you with your silly assertions and giving you arguments towards it, that you have no answers for. In case you have forgotten, as I Cypriot, I feel both TC's and GC's are my people, therefore I do not want advantages to be taken by one over another, unlike you, because the TC's numbers being lower than that of the GC's, you want to practice in Undemocratic and Racist ways of running a country. I don't mind having safeguards, and a good Federal Constitution will be one of them, but if we are going to have safeguards, then at least lets make them to be legal and democratic without violating anyone's Human Rights. Most countries around the world seems to do just fine, but not in Cyprus. Why is that.?? Do you only feel safe if you are guarded day and night by Turkish Troops.?? You as a partitionist have zero credibility to put forward towards any working formula that are not Racist, Undemocratic and Violation of Human Rights. If a country does not have these important values, what is the point in having a so called country, because no ones Democratic rights will be respected, because we will chose not to have them from day one under your type of a system. Even Confederate system of governments in other countries have all these rights for their citizens, but you do not want them in Cyprus, and you think I'm the traitor...

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

The 65% may have wanted Confederation and maintaining that "yes" vote will be important towards True Federation, and if they said "NO" to True Federation, it will be their right, hence there won't be peace and the status qua will continue,

Just like you support the GCs in their right to say no to the AP Im sure you will see no problem and support TCs if we say no to any future plans we do not feel comfortable with, or like other GCs you will say we are wrong for not accepting what the GCs want. The trick is to maintain a YES from our side as well and give GCs what they want as well, I personally feel this is near enough impossible as I always say the chasm is to wide to bridge.

If the TC's do not see a True Federation as an option for peace, then peace was never intended in voting "yes" for AP in 2004, because peace was not the center piece of their vote, but what it meant to have 2 states in a Confederacy under loose central government. But what you seem to forget is, that even greater numbers, 75% of GC's said "NO" to Confederation which you have demonised over and over again.

"True federation" according to whom? the GCs that you support or do you have a handbook that one size federation fits all? The vote for the AP was a chance to start a fresh, it was vetted and monitored by both the EU and UN, the bodies you trust more than us, we took that chance you didn't, how do you know the next plan will not be worse for GCs as that is what is needed to address problems and concerns which cannot be swept to one side.

The 75% of GCs can say no to any plan but never forget the just like GCs we also have that right to say no to any future plans and knowing Cypriots we will exercise that right not 75% but 99% if necessary.

This is why I believe, if the TC's and GC's will want to have peace, then meeting half way will be a good place to start, and that place I believe is True Federation, since one side cannot have Confederation and the other side cannot have Unitary state.

You can label it what you want as long as we have 2 states north and south administered by TCs in the north and GCs in the south, everyone can choose where they wish to settle. The federal government can be composed proportionally but both sides should be able to veto on sensitive issues which effect one state more negatively than the other, these issues can be determined prior to final agreement.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you have not hit any nerve with me. You should know that by now that words and labels are ineffective for you to try and win arguments with me. I'm just entertaining you with your silly assertions and giving you arguments towards it, that you have no answers for

This was not my aim it was something I assumed from the quality of your posts, the fact that you support GC positions more than TCs and have not one thing positive to say about the TC concerns and fears confirms that you are more on their side than you our ours and will never understand our viewpoint.

In case you have forgotten, as I Cypriot, I feel both TC's and GC's are my people, therefore I do not want advantages to be taken by one over another, unlike you, because the TC's numbers being lower than that of the GC's, you want to practice in Undemocratic and Racist ways of running a country. I don't mind having safeguards, and a good Federal Constitution will be one of them, but if we are going to have safeguards, then at least lets make them to be legal and democratic without violating anyone's Human Rights.

Your GC ideology and our TC ideology cause the chasm, what you see positive we see negative that's why I am partionist and believe there is no magic formula that will bring the 2 sides together to live in harmony we are 2 perfect examples of why I am right that this task is near enough impossible. I want to run my own state which we have been doing for 34 years and I do not want to live in a GC state administered by purely GCs, whats so wrong with this? Surely giving everyone the choice to live in either the north or south state is the best way to go about things.

Most countries around the world seems to do just fine, but not in Cyprus. Why is that.??

We are not most countries and we have a unique history which has shaped us into who we are today.

Do you only feel safe if you are guarded day and night by Turkish Troops.??

Only when there are 15.000+ GC troops and 100.000 armed reservists waiting on the other side of the divide.

You as a partitionist have zero credibility to put forward towards any working formula that are not Racist, Undemocratic and Violation of Human Rights.If a country does not have these important values, what is the point in having a so called country, because no ones Democratic rights will be respected, because we will chose not to have them from day one under your type of a system.

Why do you think we prefer partition to unity because what you want and I want are 2 different things which causes the chasm, that's why going our separate ways will ensure we both get what we want. Agreed partition is the only way to solve this problem you to in time will realize this and support what 2 separate states.

Even Confederate system of governments in other countries have all these rights for their citizens, but you do not want them in Cyprus, and you think I'm the traitor...

I know where my loyalties are and they are not with your country.

[Kikapu]

VP,

I'll keep this very short, because there's no reasoning with you. It is not something that I have discovered of late, so no surprises there.

You say you want to run your "own" state, or have an agreed partition so that you can run your "own" state (country), but your "own" state that you keep mentioning, 80% belongs to the GC's. Can you explain to me how on earth you can claim those lands to be your "own", when you only own only 20% of it. The only way you are ever going to be able to build a state on the land that you do not own 80% of it, by having a state in a True Federation. Even if the GC's wanted to sell you the whole 80% of their land so that you can have 100% of True TC land in the north, how will you pay for it.?? I do not think IOU's will be accepted. If you did manage to buy all the GC land in the North, then it may be possible for you to have a Confederation of sorts with the RoC, but at that point, I do not even think the RoC would even consider having the North in a Union with itself. For what, so that you can have a veto power over them.?? I think not, therefore you will have your own state and a chance to run your own country the way you would want. But until the 80% claim of the land is not met, then I cannot see you ever having your "own" state in the North unless it is in a form of a True Federation, where you will most likely will have the majority in the North and most likely to have TC's in local government.

As I told you before, the smaller the state size the TC's chooses to make it "their" state in the North in a True Federation, the more chance they will have to have the minimum number of GC's in "their" state, therefore, you can still have ethnically divided country with 2 states, just the way you would like it. You can also try and get a agreed partition, but somehow I cannot see it happening, not when the RoC knows, that they hold the veto over Turkey and the "TRNC" becoming a EU member in the future. I do not think agreed partition is the best course and the best interest of the True TC's anyway, as far as I'm concerned, specially if they are kept out of the EU permanently. For the settlers, they will follow your way of thinking to the moon, because they will have everything to gain and nothing to lose in a partition.

By the way, we are not a unique country as you want to make it. It is just that, some of us do not believe in True Democracy in Cyprus. Perhaps that's what you mean by being unique.

[Oracle]

Expatkiwi seems to have had his/her opening point confirmed [How can the Turkish Cypriots be pursuaded to drop their fears about reunification?]

.... He offered a question, not a point ...... You made a prejudged assumption which you then self-appointed as answered ... .

Expatkiwi is spot on

....

Is he pre-spot on with your assumption or his own question?

..... You are making a habit of this "not making sense" ...

Not the sort of logic we expect from a self professed International Lawyer ....

(But perhaps you are a little confused as to whether you are helping the Kurds for their own good, or for the good of Turkey .... )

But I want to pick on the persistently hostile and malicious antics of Oracle. She wrote early on : 'Perhaps you had better acquaint yourself with the fact that regular habits produce the idea of a stereotype ... and if Turkey did not habitually invade other people's territory and conduct genocides and ethnic cleansing .... then it would not attract such labels and perhaps trust will follow....'

I still stand by what I said ....... and nothing you have presented has weakened my argument .......

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

How wrong can something be your Honour

You are forming some bad habits of repeating yourself....

It is not regular habits which produce ideas of a stereotype (any half-witted undergraduate sociology student could tell you what nonsense that is).

Well you may be a half-witted undergraduate sociology student ... but I studied real disciplines ....

Stereotypes are the products of prejudice - that is a pre-judgement, a prior conclusion, i.e, a conclusion arrived at before any evidence has even been considered.

What a load of manure ... do you really believe this or are you just grasping at straws hoping we won't notice you drown in your own phlegmatic discharge?

It is not that Afro-Americans are stereotyped as criminals or criminally suspect because they have criminal habits; they are stereotyped as such which leads them to be treated as criminals.

Please read this criticism of A. McCall-Smith who wrote about the habits of the Bushmen of the Kalahari, and is hence accused of helping form stereotypes:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 96621.html

Further proof of my point that:

The depiction of a habit leads to a stereotype.

European Jewry were stereotyped as gold-hoarding usurers not because they had a 'regular habit' of being gold-hoarding usurers (most European Jews were poverty stricken, propertyless, labourers), but because sheer ignorance (not knowledge about habits) was fomented into blind prejudice and stereotyping.

Confused, nonsensical, badly worded ..... make another effort!

.... I hope you are not quite as bad as this when representing the Kurds in their bid for self-determination (might explain the problems they are having )

Prejudice precedes perception.

Are you suggesting a baby is prejudiced before he has perceived the world?

Study the Geneticist Matt Ridley e.g.. "The Origins of Virtue" ... and you might lose that ignorant cynicism.

Humans are in fact born virtuous unaware of habits and therefore innocent of stereotyping and prejudice ... observation of habits (or via brainwashing) leads to formation of stereotypes ... not as you suggest the other way around.

So [b]Oracle woefully misleads on the very idea of habit and stereotype. (And she calls herself a scientist She can't sort out her causa from her causans. God save us from her kind of 'science'.)[/b]

I would not present you with science ..... you may spontaneously combust ... (you are another ignoramus who has not the faintest notion of what "Science" actually means) ..... You generally do not have a clue really do you CopperLine ... to you it is all just words .. sometimes strung together to make a half-coherent sentence ... but often worn out personal sentiments, badly explained ... You are tired aren't you, dear?

But it then gets worse. As 'evidence' of her claim she refers to Turkey's alleged habit of invading other countries. What habit.

The phrase was ...

'Perhaps you had better acquaint yourself with the fact that regular habits produce the idea of a stereotype ... and if Turkey did not habitually invade other people's territory and conduct genocides and ethnic cleansing .... then it would not attract such labels and perhaps trust will follow....'

Still sounds good to me .. and apart from your ill-informed prejudices .... you have presented nothing of any worth that changes anything one iota.

Since the foundation of modern Turkey, Turkey has not invaded another country. ('Cyprus' she'll no doubt scream. Well even if you think that 1974 was an invasion, one instance hardly counts as a habit ). But Oracle doesn't let historical evidence get in the way of any of her hysterical rants.

You have answered your own question ... think a little harder and a few more things will pop out to fill in all those accusations of mine ...

And it is exactly in this insidious manner - an unreplied comment here, a sinde remark there, punctuated by an outburst of sheer hatred - that she spreads her bile and poison in this forum.

One man's bile may be another man's medicine ....

Fond as she is of changing her name, why not the Bilious Oracle, aka BO

A female prerogative dear CopperLine....

.... does change unnerve you? ... a break down in familiar comforting stereotypes ...

[Viewpoint]

VP,

I'll keep this very short, because there's no reasoning with you. It is not something that I have discovered of late, so no surprises there.

You say you want to run your "own" state, or have an agreed partition so that you can run your "own" state (country), but your "own" state that you keep mentioning, 80% belongs to the GC's. Can you explain to me how on earth you can claim those lands to be your "own", when you only own only 20% of it. The only way you are ever going to be able to build a state on the land that you do not own 80% of it, by having a state in a True Federation. Even if the GC's wanted to sell you the whole 80% of their land so that you can have 100% of True TC land in the north, how will you pay for it.?? I do not think IOU's will be accepted. If you did manage to buy all the GC land in the North, then it may be possible for you to have a Confederation of sorts with the RoC, but at that point, I do not even think the RoC would even consider having the North in a Union with itself. For what, so that you can have a veto power over them.?? I think not, therefore you will have your own state and a chance to run your own country the way you would want. But until the 80% claim of the land is not met, then I cannot see you ever having your "own" state in the North unless it is in a form of a True Federation, where you will most likely will have the majority in the North and most likely to have TC's in local government.

As I told you before, the smaller the state size the TC's chooses to make it "their" state in the North in a True Federation, the more chance they will have to have the minimum number of GC's in "their" state, therefore, you can still have ethnically divided country with 2 states, just the way you would like it. You can also try and get a agreed partition, but somehow I cannot see it happening, not when the RoC knows, that they hold the veto over Turkey and the "TRNC" becoming a EU member in the future. I do not think agreed partition is the best course and the best interest of the True TC's anyway, as far as I'm concerned, specially if they are kept out of the EU permanently. For the settlers, they will follow your way of thinking to the moon, because they will have everything to gain and nothing to lose in a partition.

By the way, we are not a unique country as you want to make it. It is just that, some of us do not believe in True Democracy in Cyprus. Perhaps that's what you mean by being unique.

I will try to keep it short as well because like the Cyprus problem we will never agree on anything, you are 50% of why there will never be a solution, thats why I support agreed partition. We have 37% and the GCs have 63% of our country and if what I say will come to fruition partition can be agreed for return for land the 29% is imo reasonable as a certain % of GCs will want to claim their properties in the TRNC.

You may no feel that way but Cyprus will always be unique and special to me.

[Kikapu]

I will try to keep it short as well because like the Cyprus problem we will never agree on anything, you are 50% of why there will never be a solution, thats why I support agreed partition. We have 37% and the GCs have 63% of our country and if what I say will come to fruition partition can be agreed for return for land the 29% is imo reasonable as a certain % of GCs will want to claim their properties in the TRNC.

You may no feel that way but Cyprus will always be unique and special to me.

you are 50% of why there will never be a solution

...................really.!!

I'm really intrigued that you believe I can have 50% influence in anything, let alone whether I can have that much in the Cyprus peace /settlement/ partition decision making.

Just out of curiosity VP, who has the other 50%.???

Let me guess, it must be that other Cypriot who goes by the name Miltiades, who like myself, would like to see Cyprus as one country, one people, one nationality.

What can we say to you VP, we are from the "old school". :lol:

You may no feel that way but Cyprus will always be unique and special to me

This is what I'm talking about when I say "Political Dishonesty". You know what I meant, which was that Cyprus is not that unique when it comes to political problems, ethnic cleansing, civil wars and so on, and yet, most others have found ways to build better and stronger nations than they had before. The same can be true for Cyprus.

If you love Cyprus that much as most of us do, then the least you can do is to support her during in her time of need to make her better, and not try to tear her apart, in her moment of weakness.....

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

I'm really intrigued that you believe I can have 50% influence in anything, let alone whether I can have that much in the Cyprus peace /settlement/ partition decision making.

Just out of curiosity VP, who has the other 50%.???

Its the mentality that you and people like you represent on the opposing side the other 50% are people like me and those who think like me. The chasm is to wide and we will never see eye to eye enough to reach a compromise that's why I have come to the conclusion and support division as any forced union will not work and end in tears for everyone.

Let me guess, it must be that other Cypriot who goes by the name Miltiades, who like myself, would like to see Cyprus as one country, one people, one nationality.

What can we say to you VP, we are from the "old school".

Miltiades can be in your 50% as his ideals are to Utopian to have any chance of being accepted or implemented.
The country has been physically and mentally divided for over 34 years and you still see us as one people one country what medication are you on?

Ands its the old school that got us in the mess in the first place so your ideology is just to little to late, the world has changed and so have we, both sides want different things and obviously we are unable to concede or compromise enough to live together so we must continue apart as we have done for the past 45 years.

This is what I'm talking about when I say "Political Dishonesty". You know what I meant, which was that Cyprus is not that unique when it comes to political problems, ethnic cleansing, civil wars and so on, and yet, most others have found ways to build better and stronger nations than they had before. The same can be true for Cyprus.

Cyprus will always be unique to me, the past shaped us and our thoughts and brought about division, it was necessary for all of us to survive, if the reverse was the case we would have built one Cypriot people but its to late for that everyone has developed in different directions and we no longer share the same goals which is why we will never be able to agree anything.

If you love Cyprus that much as most of us do, then the least you can do is to support her during in her time of need to make her better, and not try to tear her apart, in her moment of weakness.....

I love my Cyprus the TRNC not yours "RoC", you do not know mine and never will that your loss not mine.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

I'm really intrigued that you believe I can have 50% influence in anything, let alone whether I can have that much in the Cyprus peace /settlement/ partition decision making.

Just out of curiosity VP, who has the other 50%.???

Its the mentality that you and people like you represent on the opposing side the other 50% are people like me and those who think like me. The chasm is to wide and we will never see eye to eye enough to reach a compromise that's why I have come to the conclusion and support division as any forced union will not work and end in tears for everyone.

Let me guess, it must be that other Cypriot who goes by the name Miltiades, who like myself, would like to see Cyprus as one country, one people, one nationality.

What can we say to you VP, we are from the "old school".

Miltiades can be in your 50% as his ideals are to Utopian to have any chance of being accepted or implemented.
The country has been physically and mentally divided for over 34 years and you still see us as one people one country what medication are you on?

Ands its the old school that got us in the mess in the first place so your ideology is just to little to late, the world has changed and so have we, both sides want different things and obviously we are unable to concede or compromise enough to live together so we must continue apart as we have done for the past 45 years.

This is what I'm talking about when I say "Political Dishonesty". You know what I meant, which was that Cyprus is not that unique when it comes to political problems, ethnic cleansing, civil wars and so on, and yet, most others have found ways to build better and stronger nations than they had before. The same can be true for Cyprus.

Cyprus will always be unique to me, the past shaped us and our thoughts and brought about division, it was necessary for all of us to survive, if the reverse was the case we would have built one Cypriot people but its to late for that everyone has developed in different directions and we no longer share the same goals which is why we will never be able to agree anything.

If you love Cyprus that much as most of us do, then the least you can do is to support her during in her time of need to make her better, and not try to tear her apart, in her moment of weakness.....

I love my Cyprus the TRNC not yours "RoC", you do not know mine and never will that your loss not mine.

VP,

And I was hoping to be invited along with Miltiades for a lovely Cypriot home cooking at your house as soon as peace deal is signed to celebrate a new beginning for Cyprus.

Now you made me lose my apetite after your above post.

Looks like Miltiades and me will be eating alone afterall.

Just a little reminder VP, that you do not own the land that the "TRNC" sits on, so do not assume you will be granted that land to have your "new country" through partition and be recognised and be in the EU. The self declared Independence in 1984 has not even allowed you to play a friendly football match with a crap team like Luton Town. If that is your idea of independence, begging everyone to open their doors to you diplomatically, rather than be a proud nation as others in the West, just because you do not want to live in the 21st century under True Democracy.

My country has always been and always will be Cyprus, and the part that your house sits on, is still part of my country. You can divide yourself from the land if you want, but you have no right or ability to divide me from my country.

I was serious about the invitation by the way.

[Get Real!]

You say you want to run your "own" state, or have an agreed partition so that you can run your "own" state (country), but your "own" state that you keep mentioning, 80% belongs to the GC's. Can you explain to me how on earth you can claim those lands to be your "own", when you only own only 20% of it. The only way you are ever going to be able to build a state on the land that you do not own 80% of it, by having a state in a True Federation. Even if the GC's wanted to sell you the whole 80% of their land so that you can have 100% of True TC land in the north, how will you pay for it.?? I do not think IOU's will be accepted.

There’s an answer to everything my friend… maybe VP was thinking of absorbing the GCs into the “TRNC” and that way he inherits the lot!