Cyprus-Forum.com

[wallace]

Hey VP...you are really the victim here.....we all got your point!!! The only thing you want is partition. You are defending the turkish state in all your postings. If you would have the balls as a turkish cypriot and saying that you do not recognise the RoC why accept their passports and their benefits?????? Fucking hypocrits. Go for the united Cyprus and stop reffering to the past. No solution means isolation for the coming 34 years and no Turkey in the EU. If that is what you hope for we will discuss this issue again in the coming future.

[Viewpoint]

Hey VP...you are really the victim here.....we all got your point!!! The only thing you want is partition. You are defending the turkish state in all your postings. If you would have the balls as a turkish cypriot and saying that you do not recognise the RoC why accept their passports and their benefits?????? Fucking hypocrits. Go for the united Cyprus and stop reffering to the past. No solution means isolation for the coming 34 years and no Turkey in the EU. If that is what you hope for we will discuss this issue again in the coming future.

wallace you still havent got it have you, I am partionist everyone knows this. Turkey will not get in the EU and there will be no unification solution in Cyprus because Turkey is not an EU country and will never meet the criteria and the chasm between the 2 communities is to wide to bridge as the is no goodwill to compromise, we do not have the capacity or vision to find a solution and the best we deserve is what we have today.

[CopperLine]

I've only just caught up on reading this thread, but Expatkiwi seems to have had his/her opening point confirmed [How can the Turkish Cypriots be pursuaded to drop their fears about reunification?] by the unending stream of threats, accusations, allegations and abuse. (The corollary of that question is how can GCs be persuaded to drop their fears ......) The heaping of more fear-inducing denunciations is evidence of exactly why some TCs see partition as the only answer; then such TCs are denounced as being stooges of Turkey the archenemy of GCs who in turn are fear bound by an unapologetic Turkey ..... and so round and round we go. Expatkiwi is spot on.

But I want to pick on the persistently hostile and malicious antics of Oracle. She wrote early on : 'Perhaps you had better acquaint yourself with the fact that regular habits produce the idea of a stereotype ... and if Turkey did not habitually invade other people's territory and conduct genocides and ethnic cleansing .... then it would not attract such labels and perhaps trust will follow....'


Wrong, wrong, wrong. It is not regular habits which produce ideas of a stereotype (any half-witted undergraduate sociology student could tell you what nonsense that is). Stereotypes are the products of prejudice - that is a pre-judgement, a prior conclusion, i.e, a conclusion arrived at before any evidence has even been considered. It is not that Afro-Americans are stereotyped as criminals or criminally suspect because they have criminal habits; they are stereotyped as such which leads them to be treated as criminals. European Jewry were stereotyped as gold-hoarding usurers not because they had a 'regular habit' of being gold-hoarding usurers (most European Jews were poverty stricken, propertyless, labourers), but because sheer ignorance (not knowledge about habits) was fomented into blind prejudice and stereotyping.
Prejudice precedes perception.

So Oracle woefully misleads on the very idea of habit and stereotype. (And she calls herself a scientist She can't sort out her causa from her causans. God save us from her kind of 'science'.)

But it then gets worse. As 'evidence' of her claim she refers to Turkey's alleged habit of invading other countries. What habit. Since the foundation of modern Turkey, Turkey has not invaded another country. ('Cyprus' she'll no doubt scream. Well even if you think that 1974 was an invasion, one instance hardly counts as a habit ). But Oracle doesn't let historical evidence get in the way of any of her hysterical rants. And it is exactly in this insidious manner - an unreplied comment here, a sinde remark there, punctuated by an outburst of sheer hatred - that she spreads her bile and poison in this forum.

Fond as she is of changing her name, why not the Bilious Oracle, aka BO

[Oracle]

"Stereotyping on both sides has been rampant, and I have to admit, I have been guilty of this as well. I personally feel that Greeks and Greek Cypriots cannot be trusted to keep their word given to the Turkish populace, and that Greeks simply regard Turks as inferior savages."

This is one of the most offensice posts ever on this forum. When have you seen stereotyping in here, even by people like Big Al who tends to lose his cool more easily than the rest of us, or any expression that the TCs are inferior savages of the GCs liars. as a generalisation? There have been personal attacks but never a racial insult that I can recall. The only time that has happened has been by GCs against GCs or Greeks.

And I thought that you were one of the smarter ones on this forum, Nikitas. Looks like I badly misjudged you. RACE is the dominant issue here: Greek vs Turk. Just read Oracle's posts...

The moral of the story is: without racial tolerance, there is not going to be any national reconciliation. If you want to prove me wrong, then start treating Turkish Cypriots as human beings.

Expatkiwi ... are you suggesting the Turks and the Greeks are different races ..... ?

Man ... you do not have a clue ...

And you don't have a reconciling bone in your body. YOU treat the Turk as a different race of people aplenty in your posts. Don't try and use semantics in order to deny THAT. The Greek people have a proud history, but that history has been tainted - and still is - by strong xenophobic tendancies, which you have exhibited. It is little wonder that the term 'Barbarian' is Greek (another word for all non-Greek speakers, I believe...)

There are none so blind Expatkiwi, as those who refuse to see anything that does not fuel their bigotry.

The central theme of each of your posts is to spread divisive messages .... prejudged false values ... you have a personal agenda here, which is clearly to label the GCs as the bad eggs........

There is an important message that I have been trying to establish. It is falling on stony ground ..... because it goes against your central theme ... so you keep trying to remove it and replace it with your unfounded accusations.

Once again I re-iterate for those slow to learn, or recalcitrant to change ....

There is no sound evidence to group people into "races" because we have more differences genetically at the individual level than at the group level ....... Not just Greeks or Turks ...... but THE WHOLE OF HUMANKIND...

Therefore try as you might, no matter how much you scream until you are red in the face... My message remains the same...

There is only one race ... The Human Race ...

..... unfortunately within this, there are twerps such as you who must believe, desire to hold onto, have in order to justify their prejudices, absolutely can't live without, would suffocate if they cannot hang on to ......... the only thing which lends meaning to their pathetic existence ....... their "racist" agenda ......

My message is continually ignored ... because it is in direct opposition to your "racist" political ideology ....

Expat ... ignore what we say, do not even bother reading our posts ... carry on with what is inside your head so that you can deny evidence and the truth, and perpetuate your "racism" in order to continue spreading your divisive message...

[bilako22]

Sure we are all members of this Human Race , a group of people who have have a history of committing unspeakable acts on each other. The bottom line is that within the human race there are groups of people such as Turks and Greeks who fear and do not trust the other . The history of Cyprus prevents magical solutions such as instantaneous unification , a desire that can only be achieved through a long process of confidence building measures.

[Kikapu]

VP,

Why do you not want a virgin birth? why not get rid of the rememnents of what went wrong, TCs do not accept the "RoC" just as much as the GCs reject the TRNC. We have the opportunity to start a fresh leave behind the dark past which has shaped a new future as 2 states, if we wish to unite then surely continuation of what went wrong will ensure another failure.

I do not have a problem in having a "Virgin Birth" as a New Country under a True Federation, as in "United States of Cyprus". My objections are having 2 states as a Confederacy where it is ruled solely by one ethnic group or the other, despite anyone allowed to live where ever they may choose in their own country of Cyprus, they will not be allowed to take part in any political decisions concerning the state that they live in, unless one belongs to one ethnic group or the other. In another words, True Democracy will not exist in either of the 2 states and Taxation without representation will be the norm. Secondly, unless there is a strong central government, laws will be passed in each of the 2 states that may well be discriminatory to those Cypriots who do not have any political voice in the state they live and pay taxes in, since they are not allowed to participate in the political process to stop such Racist, and Discriminatory practices. Pretty soon, you will see people leaving the state that they have no representation, thus making it a True TC or GC states, and once again cause a divide along ethnic lines, which will bring us back to square one, and having already agreed to a new "Virgin Birth" based on Confederacy, either side will take their "land" and push for Independence. In order to avoid this outcome and Racist and Undemocratic political Practices, I support a True Federation where the island is united through a 2 states functioning under the Federal laws that cannot be superseded by local state laws, despite each state can have certain laws that may be different from each other, but cannot be above the Federal Laws, which are there to protect every one's rights.

A traitor can also sell out his people, community, friends.

You have not explained what is it that I have done, that will meet to the level of being a "traitor" to my community. Is wanting a True Democracy and a True Federation for all Cypriots and fighting against Partition which will bring further bloodshed in the future because land claims made by others will not go away, therefore it will be a matter of time before we have another war.?? Are these your understanding as to what constitutes acts of treason.?? Perhaps they do to partitionist, because it serves their cause well by trying to remove those who stand in their way. Here are some explanations on what a "traitor is". Pay a special attention to this line.

"At times, the term "traitor" has been levelled as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action".

"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation. Historically, treason also covered the murder of specific social superiors, such as the murder of a husband by his wife (treason against the king was known as high treason and treason against a lesser superior was petit treason). A person who commits treason is known as a traitor.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Outside legal spheres, the word "traitor" may also be used a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, nation, family, friends, ethnic group, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong. Often, such accusations are controversial and disputed, as the person may not identify with the group of which they are a member, or may otherwise disagree with the group leaders making the charge. See, for example, race traitor.

At times, the term "traitor" has been levelled as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action. In a civil war or insurrection, the winners may deem the losers to be traitors. Likewise the term "traitor" is used in heated political discussion – typically as a slur against political dissidents, or against officials in power who are perceived as failing to act in the best interest of their constituents. In certain cases, as with the German Dolchstoßlegende, the accusation of treason towards a large group of people can be a unifying political message".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason

[Nikitas]

Oracle on one side and Eric Dayi on the other, both ready to jump on posters with standard dismissive comments, OK, that does not mean that the tone used by all other posters is a racist one. To call TCs stooges of Turkey is not a racist comment, nor is it racist to call GCs Enosis fans, regardless of how prejudiced this view may be and how negative for a solution.

Racism is the assumption that a group or community is somehow racially inferior (whatever that may mean). And I have yet to see a view here along these lines.

[wallace]

Hey VP...you are really the victim here.....we all got your point!!! The only thing you want is partition. You are defending the turkish state in all your postings. If you would have the balls as a turkish cypriot and saying that you do not recognise the RoC why accept their passports and their benefits?????? Fucking hypocrits. Go for the united Cyprus and stop reffering to the past. No solution means isolation for the coming 34 years and no Turkey in the EU. If that is what you hope for we will discuss this issue again in the coming future.

wallace you still havent got it have you, I am partionist everyone knows this. Turkey will not get in the EU and there will be no unification solution in Cyprus because Turkey is not an EU country and will never meet the criteria and the chasm between the 2 communities is to wide to bridge as the is no goodwill to compromise, we do not have the capacity or vision to find a solution and the best we deserve is what we have today.

Well......a great deal of people think differently then you and I'm glad they do. It seems that there is only one that doesn't want to compromise.....and that is you. That's your right and finally your problem.
What will you do when your wishes do NOT come through? Are you able to life with that? Will you adopt or are you 1 of these that will do anything to create trouble because your wishes did not come through?

[Oracle]

Oracle on one side and Eric Dayi on the other, both ready to jump on posters with standard dismissive comments, OK, that does not mean that the tone used by all other posters is a racist one. To call TCs stooges of Turkey is not a racist comment, nor is it racist to call GCs Enosis fans, regardless of how prejudiced this view may be and how negative for a solution.

Racism is the assumption that a group or community is somehow racially inferior (whatever that may mean). And I have yet to see a view here along these lines.

Well if you read what I have to say instead of dismissing it because you prefer to read what the Turks say, you may become a little more informed.

Racism was based on the assumption that one "race" is genetically superior to another ... perhaps through longer evolution away from chimps ...

All absolute dated claptrap, and lethal in the wrong minds ....

There are no discernible significant differences between any of the groups of mankind ... there are obviously only the (desired) differences between individuals (except for identical twins / clones) ....

[Viewpoint]

VP,

Why do you not want a virgin birth? why not get rid of the rememnents of what went wrong, TCs do not accept the "RoC" just as much as the GCs reject the TRNC. We have the opportunity to start a fresh leave behind the dark past which has shaped a new future as 2 states, if we wish to unite then surely continuation of what went wrong will ensure another failure.

I do not have a problem in having a "Virgin Birth" as a New Country under a True Federation, as in "United States of Cyprus". My objections are having 2 states as a Confederacy where it is ruled solely by one ethnic group or the other, despite anyone allowed to live where ever they may choose in their own country of Cyprus, they will not be allowed to take part in any political decisions concerning the state that they live in, unless one belongs to one ethnic group or the other. In another words, True Democracy will not exist in either of the 2 states and Taxation without representation will be the norm. Secondly, unless there is a strong central government, laws will be passed in each of the 2 states that may well be discriminatory to those Cypriots who do not have any political voice in the state they live and pay taxes in, since they are not allowed to participate in the political process to stop such Racist, and Discriminatory practices. Pretty soon, you will see people leaving the state that they have no representation, thus making it a True TC or GC states, and once again cause a divide along ethnic lines, which will bring us back to square one, and having already agreed to a new "Virgin Birth" based on Confederacy, either side will take their "land" and push for Independence. In order to avoid this outcome and Racist and Undemocratic political Practices, I support a True Federation where the island is united through a 2 states functioning under the Federal laws that cannot be superseded by local state laws, despite each state can have certain laws that may be different from each other, but cannot be above the Federal Laws, which are there to protect every one's rights.

A traitor can also sell out his people, community, friends.

You have not explained what is it that I have done, that will meet to the level of being a "traitor" to my community. Is wanting a True Democracy and a True Federation for all Cypriots and fighting against Partition which will bring further bloodshed in the future because land claims made by others will not go away, therefore it will be a matter of time before we have another war.?? Are these your understanding as to what constitutes acts of treason.?? Perhaps they do to partitionist, because it serves their cause well by trying to remove those who stand in their way. Here are some explanations on what a "traitor is". Pay a special attention to this line.

"At times, the term "traitor" has been levelled as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action".

"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation. Historically, treason also covered the murder of specific social superiors, such as the murder of a husband by his wife (treason against the king was known as high treason and treason against a lesser superior was petit treason). A person who commits treason is known as a traitor.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Outside legal spheres, the word "traitor" may also be used a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, nation, family, friends, ethnic group, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong. Often, such accusations are controversial and disputed, as the person may not identify with the group of which they are a member, or may otherwise disagree with the group leaders making the charge. See, for example, race traitor.

At times, the term "traitor" has been levelled as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action. In a civil war or insurrection, the winners may deem the losers to be traitors. Likewise the term "traitor" is used in heated political discussion – typically as a slur against political dissidents, or against officials in power who are perceived as failing to act in the best interest of their constituents. In certain cases, as with the German Dolchstoßlegende, the accusation of treason towards a large group of people can be a unifying political message".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason

Kikapu whether a "true federation" or a confederation evolves only time will tell if these talks ever get off the ground but the fact is that the first attempt was more along the lines of how 65% of TCs perceive BBF, so any major changes that will effect this perception negatively will bring with it rejection this time from the TC camp, will you then kindly support our right to say no just like the GCs?


The traitor issue has hit a raw nerve me thinks, but why it came about in your case was purely based on a traitor who stabs his own people in the back and sides with opposition, not even once saying anything in favor of people who have also suffered and have concerns and fears that need to be addressed, you whole argument is based on TCs being 100% wrong and the we should yield to GC rule, all we ask for is safeguards to ensure we are not pushed to one side by a community with whom we have not shared political power for 45 years. You need to show you can see things from a TCs angel if you are indeed one because everything you argue for smells of the GC camp as like them you promote a system that would allow GCs to manipulate matters into their own hands and where we will be a minority in our own country.