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Why didn't they ask the TCs?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Oracle » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:39 pm

observer wrote:. the picture portrayed by Oracle (and others) of a power mad, expansionist Turkey is equally wrong.


In just one small article, how many countries / nations is Turkey implicated with?

From: The New Statesman

Brian Coleman wrote:The 'desecration' of Cyprus
Posted by Brian Coleman 22 October 2007 243

The deaths of a couple of dozen Turkish troops in operations against the Kurds and the vote by the Turkish Parliament to in effect invade Northern Iraq to pursue operations against the Kurdish people has focused world attention on a conflict which the modern state of Turkey has pursued for many decades.

Whereas over the last few years the legitimate Republic of Cyprus has made huge economic strides.

On the back of EU membership it operates as a mainstream European Country. The occupied north meanwhile continues to exist in a form of Asiatic poverty with an army of occupation of about 40,000 troops.

Most of the native Cypriots (both Greek and Turkish) have long since given up and abandoned the place to settlers flown in from Anatolia.

The desecration of Orthodox churches and the wholesale stripping and sale abroad of religious icons and archaeological treasures has to be seen to be believed and the ethnic cleansing carried out in the north of this magnificent island is as bad as anything experienced in the former Yugoslavia.

Yet as the new female Cypriot Foreign Minister Erato Kozakou-Marcoullis told me in rather a forceful manner - she has a touch of the Margaret Thatcher about her - there are thousands of Britons buying property illegally confiscated from Cypriots many of whom are my constituents in North London. In fact 95% of sales in the occupied area are to Brits.

Quite why anyone would buy property they have no legal entitlement to and which, when the eventual reunion of Cyprus comes, they may well lose with no compensation at all is beyond me. However the British Government sits back and does little to prevent these sales and the environmental damage to picturesque North Cyprus which the huge building boom is causing.

This last fortnight has also shown that Britain is not alone in playing softball with Turkey; the attitude of President Bush to Congress which was discussing the Armenian genocide was bizarre.

As the Armenian ambassador explained in his excellent piece on the New Statesman website last week, nobody with any common sense denies that the Armenian Genocide of 1915 onwards took place. Yet if the Germans can admit their guilt over the Nazi Holocaust why cannot the Turks do likewise?

The plucky little democratic country of Armenia still has to contend with a blockade by Turkey not to mention the aggression of its neighbour Azerbaijan whose idea of Democracy is to pass the presidency down from father to son.

So why this desire by Britain and the US to butter up Turkey? Gone is the Cold war threat from the Soviet Union and, with the election of President Gul, the Islamists are taking over Turkey anyway. Quite how the Turks imagine they can have any place in the EU whilst maintaining their belligerence on Cyprus, Armenia and towards the Kurds is beyond me.

Exactly why does the British Government continue to promote Turkey’s EU membership? Could it by any chance be to do with Labour’s need of the Muslim vote?
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Postby Oracle » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:22 am

observer wrote:... the picture portrayed by Oracle (and others) of a power mad, expansionist Turkey is equally wrong...



....... Let's not forget that other little example of recent Turkish Expansionist policy ... another case of skulduggery towards annexation of anything in the vicinity of Turkey ....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9641
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Postby zan » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:24 am

Oracle wrote:
observer wrote:... the picture portrayed by Oracle (and others) of a power mad, expansionist Turkey is equally wrong...



....... Let's not forget that other little example of recent Turkish Expansionist policy ... another case of skulduggery towards annexation of anything in the vicinity of Turkey ....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9641


Do you hate the Megali Idea in equal proportions dear Oracle???? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Oracle » Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:38 am

zan wrote:
Oracle wrote:
observer wrote:... the picture portrayed by Oracle (and others) of a power mad, expansionist Turkey is equally wrong...



....... Let's not forget that other little example of recent Turkish Expansionist policy ... another case of skulduggery towards annexation of anything in the vicinity of Turkey ....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9641


Do you hate the Megali Idea in equal proportions dear Oracle???? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


I shall never stop having big ideas ... but I do not violate my neighbour's rights in fulfilling them.

It's one thing to have had territorial rights from pre-history, have them stolen in modern history, and harbour thoughts of a reversal ...

And quite clearly a different situation, to have had no territorial claims a few hundred years ago, yet to have amassed ... and worse CONTINUE to amass your neighbours' territories in such a short space of time ....

Get the idea? :wink:
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Postby iceman » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:14 pm

Nurgary wrote:New to this forum - so Hi,

Have been reading some threads over last few weeks and have to post that SBA's will only be given up when HMG wants to give them up. As simple as that. I keep on hearing that HMG owes rent on them but I can't find any document that indicates that any rent for SBA;s was ever signed. I am may be wrong so I ask anybody here to give me a reference to this document.


That's because no such document was ever signed.
The only reference you will see on this subject is on wikipedia and we all know how wikipedia works.

Below is the relevant paragraphs of the Republic Of Cyprus Constitution 1960.


APPENDIX A

DRAFT TREATY CONCERNING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Kingdom of Greece and the Republic of Turkey of the one part and the Republic of Cyprus of the other part;

Desiring to make provisions to give effect to the Declaration made by the Government of the United Kingdom on the 17th of February, 1959, during the Conference at London, in accordance with the subsequent Declarations made at the Conference by the Foreign Ministers of Greece and Turkey, by the Representative of the Greek Cypriot Community and by the Representative of the Turkish Cypriot Community;

Taking note of the terms of the Treaty of Guarantee signed to-day by the Parties to this Treaty;

Have agreed as follows:—

ARTICLE 1
The territory of the Republic of Cyprus shall comprise the Island of Cyprus, together with the islands Iying off its coast, with the exception of the two areas defined in Annex A to this Treaty, which areas shall remain under the sovereignty of the United Kingdom. These areas are in this Treaty and its Annexes referred to as the Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area and the Dhekelia Sovereign Base Area.

http://www.kypros.org/Constitution/Engl ... dix_a.html

ANNEX A
(NOTE.—The large-scale maps, air photographs and descriptions referred to in this Annex are not printed. Copies will be made available in the Libraries of both Houses and an authenticated set will be deposited in the Commonwealth Relations Office during the passage of the Bill through Parliament.

Small-scale illustrative maps, however, corresponding to Maps A and B', referred to in Section I of this Annex, are contained in Appendix V to this Paper as maps numbers 1 and 2.)


SECTION 1
The Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area anal the Dhekelia Sovereign Base Area shall comprise the two areas which are approximately indicated in red on Map A and Map B attached to this Annex.

2. - a) The land boundaries of the Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area shall be as defined in the maps, air photographs and description contained in Schedule A to this Annex.

(b) The land boundaries of the Dhekelia Sovereign Base Area shall be as defined in the maps, air photographs and description contained in Schedule B to this Annex.

3. The maps, air photographs and descriptions in Schedules A and B to this Annex shall be interpreted in accordance with the Introductory Notes to those Schedules.


SECTION 2
1. The boundaries of the Akrotiri Sovereign Base Area and of the Dhekelia Sovereign Base Area provided for in Section 1 of this Annex shall be marked clearly and effectively on the ground by a boundary Commission composed of representatives appointed by the United Kingdom and by the Republic of Cyprus.

2. The Commission shall be appointed and begin its work immediately upon the entry into force of this Treaty, and shall complete it as soon as possible and in any case within a period of nine months.

3. Subject to paragraph 5 of this Section, the Commission shall adhere strictly to the boundaries provided for in Section 1 of this Annex.

4. Any question as to the correct technical interpretation of the maps, air photographs or descriptions upon which the Commission may be unable to agree may be referred by either the United Kingdom or the Republic of Cyprus for decision to an independent expert to be selected by agreement between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Cyprus. His decision shall be final and binding.

5. The Commission may, if the Commissioners of the United Kingdom and of the Republic of Cyprus agree, make minor deviations from the boundaries provided for in Section 1 of this Annex in order to take account of local administrative conditions and may mark the boundaries accordingly. If the Commissioners are unable to agree, the boundaries provided for in Section 1 of this Annex shall be marked as the boundaries.


SECTION 3
1. The Republic of Cyprus shall not claim, as part of its territorial sea, waters lying between Line I and Line II as described in paragraph 2 of this Section, or between Line III and Line IV as described therein.

2. The lines for the purposes of paragraph 1 of this Section shall be as follows:—

Line I: From the position on the low-water line Iying in a 163• direction from Point No. 57D/ 1, as defined in Schedule A to this Annex, in a 163• direction for 6 85 miles; then in a 207• direction for 3 miles; and then in a 204• direction.

Line II: From the position on the low-water line Iying in a 1081/2• direction from Point No. 59A/5, as defined in Schedule A to this Annex, in a 1081/2• direction for 7 8 miles; and then in a 136• direction.

Line III: From the position on the low-water line Iying in a 170• direction from Point No. 41B/ 10, as defined in Schedule B to this Annex, in a 170• direction for 3 8 miles; then in a 136• direction for 3 1 miles; and then in a 156• direction.

LineIV: From the position on the low-water line Iying in a 103• direction from Point No. 42B/3, as defined in Schedule B to this Annex, in a 103• direction for O9 miles; then in a 150• direction for 6 3 miles; and then in a 176• direction.

3. In paragraph 2 of this Section, the distances quoted are in sea miles reckoned at 1,852 international metres to one sea mile, and the bearings are referred to the True North and are given in degrees reckoned clockwise from 000 • (North) to 359•.


SECTION 4
1. Notwithstanding that the Dhekelia Power Station will stand on territory of the Republic of Cyprus, if the Power Station fails, by reason of absence or insufficiency of staff, labour or equipment, to provide adequate supplies of power to the United Kingdom authorities, authorised service organisations, United Kingdom personnel and their dependents, and contractors, the United Kingdom may in consultation with, or in cases of urgency on notification to, the authorities of the Republic of Cyprus, provide their own staff, labour and equipment to ensure the provision of such supplies so long as the deficiency continues.

2. For the purposes of this Section, " United Kingdom authorities ", " authorised service organisations ", " United Kingdom personnel ", "dependents " and " contractors " have the same meanings as these expressions have for the purposes of Annex B to this Treaty.

http://www.kypros.org/Constitution/English/annex_a.html
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Postby observer » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:13 pm

Oracle wrote:
observer wrote:. the picture portrayed by Oracle (and others) of a power mad, expansionist Turkey is equally wrong.


In just one small article, how many countries / nations is Turkey implicated with?

From: The New Statesman

Brian Coleman wrote:The 'desecration' of Cyprus
Posted by Brian Coleman 22 October 2007 243

The deaths of a couple of dozen Turkish troops in operations against the Kurds and the vote by the Turkish Parliament to in effect invade Northern Iraq to pursue operations against the Kurdish people has focused world attention on a conflict which the modern state of Turkey has pursued for many decades.

Whereas over the last few years the legitimate Republic of Cyprus has made huge economic strides.

On the back of EU membership it operates as a mainstream European Country. The occupied north meanwhile continues to exist in a form of Asiatic poverty with an army of occupation of about 40,000 troops.

Most of the native Cypriots (both Greek and Turkish) have long since given up and abandoned the place to settlers flown in from Anatolia.

The desecration of Orthodox churches and the wholesale stripping and sale abroad of religious icons and archaeological treasures has to be seen to be believed and the ethnic cleansing carried out in the north of this magnificent island is as bad as anything experienced in the former Yugoslavia.

Yet as the new female Cypriot Foreign Minister Erato Kozakou-Marcoullis told me in rather a forceful manner - she has a touch of the Margaret Thatcher about her - there are thousands of Britons buying property illegally confiscated from Cypriots many of whom are my constituents in North London. In fact 95% of sales in the occupied area are to Brits.

Quite why anyone would buy property they have no legal entitlement to and which, when the eventual reunion of Cyprus comes, they may well lose with no compensation at all is beyond me. However the British Government sits back and does little to prevent these sales and the environmental damage to picturesque North Cyprus which the huge building boom is causing.

This last fortnight has also shown that Britain is not alone in playing softball with Turkey; the attitude of President Bush to Congress which was discussing the Armenian genocide was bizarre.

As the Armenian ambassador explained in his excellent piece on the New Statesman website last week, nobody with any common sense denies that the Armenian Genocide of 1915 onwards took place. Yet if the Germans can admit their guilt over the Nazi Holocaust why cannot the Turks do likewise?

The plucky little democratic country of Armenia still has to contend with a blockade by Turkey not to mention the aggression of its neighbour Azerbaijan whose idea of Democracy is to pass the presidency down from father to son.

So why this desire by Britain and the US to butter up Turkey? Gone is the Cold war threat from the Soviet Union and, with the election of President Gul, the Islamists are taking over Turkey anyway. Quite how the Turks imagine they can have any place in the EU whilst maintaining their belligerence on Cyprus, Armenia and towards the Kurds is beyond me.

Exactly why does the British Government continue to promote Turkey’s EU membership? Could it by any chance be to do with Labour’s need of the Muslim vote?


I wouldn’t pay too much attention to Brian Coleman, whose Turkophobic credentials are well known.

However, here goes ...

The operation in Northern Iraq was limited and against Kurds launching attacks into Turkey. If Kurds from what is virtually an independent region of Iraq launch attacks into Turkey, then it is Turkey’s right to launch attacks back, provided that those attacks are limited in aim to engage those launching the attacks, and proportionate to the threat. Turkish soldiers have now left Iraq, and I believe from all that I have read that the operation was limited in aim and proportionate.

The comments on Cyprus are biased and distorted, as I would expect from this author.

The situation with ‘plucky little democratic Armenia’ is complicated in the extreme, and deserves a thread to itself were this an Armenia forum. However the term ‘plucky little democratic Armenia’ reveals Brian Coleman’s bias. It may be democratic in name, but corruption and vote rigging is widely alleged and journalists locked up. Turkey has not sent any soldiers there apart from a small number on joint NATO exercises, where they were greeted by an Armenian military band playing the Turkish national anthem.

Not really an expansionist Turkey.
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Postby humanist » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:18 pm

which bit of the truth about the article talking about Cyprus do you disagree observer or do you find not to be true.

Is it that a few hundret thousand Cypriots have not been kicked out at the point of a gun by Turkish army, the descecration of churches, the overwhelmiong numer of settlrs or the scum bag Irish who come in and buy property that does not belong to the seller. All given the okay of Talat and his administration.
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Postby observer » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:08 pm

Oracle wrote:
observer wrote:... the picture portrayed by Oracle (and others) of a power mad, expansionist Turkey is equally wrong...



....... Let's not forget that other little example of recent Turkish Expansionist policy ... another case of skulduggery towards annexation of anything in the vicinity of Turkey ....

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9641


I’m afraid that if you look upon this forum (or any other) as the fount of all knowledge then you are going to end up very ill-informed.

The link takes you to a forum thread on Hatay, now a province in South East Turkey. The situation in Hatay in 1918 was one that is common to the break up of any empire. There was a mixed population and with new boundaries and different people felt that they should be on one side of the border or the other. It can be seen today after the break up of what were, in effect, the Russian Empire and the Serbian Empire of Yugoslavia. The break up of India and Palestine are classic historical cases.

Under the terms of the Treaty of Sevres, which was never ratified, the territory was placed under the mandate of France and included in the French mandate of Syria. However, a later French-Turkish treaty, recognizing that part of Hatay contained a large number of Turks made that area autonomous, and after a number of changes, the League of Nations brokered a deal which made which made the area an autonomous part of the French mandate of Syria once again. A census carried out under international supervision in 1936 allocated the 40 seats in the assembly as follows:
Turks: 22
Alawi Arabs: 9
Armenians: 5
Sunni Arabs: 2
Christian Arabs: 2

A brief calculation will show that the number of Turkish seats outnumbered all the other representatives.

In 1938 the autonomous assembly declared UDI from Syria under the title of the Republic of Hatay and lasted one year under joint Turkish-French administration. In 1939, following a referendum, it became part of Turkey.

In summary, Hatay went from being part of the Ottoman Empire, into a French mandate who included it on-and-off as part of their mandate of Syria, but mostly treating it as an autonomous province, to finally be returned to Turkey following a referendum. Syria still, rather half-heartedly, claims it as part of Syria because of it being included in the French mandate, and because of it having a large Arab population, but then, it was also part of Turkey and the Turkish population larger.

Once again, difficult to describe as an example of power mad Turkish expansionism.
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Postby observer » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:19 pm

humanist wrote:which bit of the truth about the article talking about Cyprus do you disagree observer or do you find not to be true.

Is it that a few hundret thousand Cypriots have not been kicked out at the point of a gun by Turkish army, the descecration of churches, the overwhelmiong numer of settlrs or the scum bag Irish who come in and buy property that does not belong to the seller. All given the okay of Talat and his administration.


"Biased and distorted" were my words. Not even a passing reference to the very valid reasons that brought the Turkish Army to Cyprus.
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Postby Nurgary » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:43 pm

Hi Iceman - I agree with you totally that no rental document was ever signed and that not even mentioned in the treaty. However, on this and many other forums the GC's keep on saying for some reason that rent is owed. Just wanted them to provide a reference (Not one).

Whatever they say - SBA's will be HMG until they decide to gift them.
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