Viewpoint wrote:PiratisIf we wanted to find who has the most blame then obviously the one who started it all, and then who caused the most harm and for the most time would be the one with the most share of blame. But as I said our aim is not to appropriate blame because we do not seek to punish anybody, or gain on the loss of another. But if you want to go back to appropriate blame then you should at least do it in the right way.
I will not respond to this as we appear to be going around in circles but ı will say that my aim is not to apportion blame but to learn from the past and take the necessary precautions to ensure that we do not repeat the same mistakes.
And what are these mistakes you are talking about? I would be very glad if you indeed didn't want to repeat the same mistakes, but apparently what you want is to repeat of more of the same and to continue be the pawns of Turkey and UK in Cyprus, with the hope that those foreign powers will reward you on the expense of the rest of Cypriots for helping them secure their interests on our island.
We shouldn't forget the past but the lessons we get from the past should be right ones.
An extremist GCs could come to the conclusion that in order to have peace in Cyprus and for Cypriots to gain their safety and rights, that 100s of thousands of TCs should be ethnically cleansed from Cyprus. Sure, that would solve the problem of GCs, it would also make GCs richer by gaining on TCs lands. So maybe all GCs should support this "solution"? I think you would agree with me that such thing is not a solution.
Similarly an extremist TC can support a "solution" based on the ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of GCs, which would give to those TCs more land and power than what belongs to them. I hope you would agree with me that this is not a solution either.
Piratis look, you keep churning over the same lines, how do you know for sure that if the shoe was on the other foot the GCs would not have used their power to eradicate us from the island, surely you cannot turn a blind eye today to how we were treated in the past, there are many ways to get rid of a population and from 1963 onwards GCs were using many of them, where were you then, no one was demanding equality for all citizens only because it was the TCs who were in the fire not the GCs. Military strength wise we have the upper hand and you know it so you have to argue your viewpoint that we did bad but you never ask why? You caused the current divide just as much as I did, so as we have said the blame is not on one side.
First of all we never tried to "eradicate" TCs in any kind of way. There was a conflict in the 60s, just like there was in the 50s, and a few 100s of people from both sides died. If you dispute this fact I can provide to you with numbers from independent sources that show that the ratio between TCs and GCs remained the same between 1960 and 1973. So please stop repeating this myth.
About the blame, yes, both sides have some share of blame, but it doesn't mean it is equal, especially when it comes to the division which has been the official Turkish aim since the 50s and continues to be today.
You can't expect to achieve peace by ethnically cleansing people, stealing their lands and violating their human and democratic rights. If thats what you think, then you didn't learn any lessons from the past.
This argument does not hold water as we TCs show on this forum that we are prepared to sort out our differences and resolve an outstanding problem, the division will remain until we agree on a comprehensive solution, this isn't very difficult to understand.
But the "comprehensive solution" that you demand is division. You accept nothing else.
The solution is human rights for all, democracy and equality among all citizens without racist discriminations.
Will you be arguing so strongly when TCs are discriminated against or when we go to a government office to obtain our rights and find no one takes any interest, when my child cannot find a job because they do not speak Greek, or when the government decides to black list Turkey and not allow trade, or when I am visit the ECHR to obtain my basic rights, or when the seats in parliament have been filled by GC MPs, where will you be then laughing at my expense me thinks.
I never asked that any of your rights should be violated. You are the one who insists on violating mine, and you have no excuse to do that.
All your rights can be protected with a constitution that will not be able to change without your approval. We are more than willing to discuss any safeguard you want, as long as those safeguards are not used as an excuse to violate the rights of the rest of Cypriots.
VP, in a country those who are equal are the citizens. Dividing citizens along ethnic lines, and giving to some citizens proportionally more power than others is somehting racist.
In Switzerland the citizens of each canton own the great majority of the land of their canton. They didn't create their canton by stealing land and ethnically cleansing others. The TCs are an ethnic minority like every other ethnic minority that exists in almost every other country. They don't own a separate part of the country and they can't expect to own one by stealing it from others and ethnically cleansing its native people. TCs have to learn to live as equal Cypriot citizens, and stop trying to take land that does not belong to them in order to form a separate entity there.
There are examples around the world where the ruling structure is divided along ethnic lines, over time where trust and understanding takes hold the need for these precautions reduces but for now we do have any trust for each other specific safeguards have to be put in place that will not allow one community to dominate the other.
Again you churn out the cleansing issue, you contributed to this so you should also be asking yourself why you made so many mistakes and disregarded a large section of your population.
And what are those countries you are talking about?
And stop telling me that I contributed to any ethnic cleansing. Thats just a fantasy. Yes, we contributed in a conflict between 1957 and 1968, where each side lost some 100s of people, but not in the ehtnic cleansing.
I might sometimes react in kind to the hate propaganda that is thrown against us, I admit that. But why would I want to fuel hate? To gain what? It is your aim, partition, which is served with hate, not mine which is one united Cyprus with equal Cypriot citizens. So why would I want to fuel hate?
That's why I am trying to point out that you do promote hate and this may not be what you want or work in favor of your goal as you prove that we cannot agree anything with people who are despot and have very rigid opinions, who see our community as second class and therefore should have less rights than their own.
Your view of a united Cyprus with equal citizens is based on GC majority dominance.
On the contrary what I want is a free Cyprus without any despots and without first class and second class citizens, but where all citizens are equal regardless of ethnic background. If you have a problem that the great majority of this island are Greek Cypriots then you have the right to move to another country. You don't have the right to ethnically cleanse people and impose Ottoman style divisions between high class Muslims and low class Christians, just because you can't accept the very simple fact that you are a minority on this island.
Your viewpoint it is somehting I know very well already. It is the arrogant extremist position I described above: "Lets ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of people, lets gain power and land on their loss, and everything would be great for us".
As I told you a GC extremist could say the same things as you say. He could also claim that after centuries of being prosecuted and oppressed by the Turks and after being unable to cooperate with them, the "solution" and a required "safeguard" would be to ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of them, and take their land and their proportion of power. If you look at the "solution" in this one sided way, which safeguards yourself to the 100% and gives you gains, while at the same time you are taking away the rights and lands of others, then the result will be more of the same, and not a real and permanent solution.
This argument is invalid as we do not know what you would do if you have the military might. You might have carried out the annihilation of the TCs as stated by the coupists who support your goal of enosis.
VP, all these theories remind a thread Get Real! started some time ago:
The “Might have” Vs the “Did do”
You can't accuse us of what you imagine we would have done. If it was like that I would be able to convict anybody I wanted. It doesn't work that way.
What is wrong is that you want to safeguard and benefit yourself by ethnically cleansing others, stealing their lands and violating their rights. Maybe we should also say that after suffering from the Turks nonstop for centuries, the "solution" should be to ethnically cleanse the TCs from Cyprus so we will finally have peace and safety? The invasion happened just 34 years ago, and the occupation happens today. Non of these would happen if there were no TCs in Cyprus. So should the solution be to ethnically cleanse TCs from Cyprus as a safeguard that what happened 34 years ago and what is happening today will never happen again? I am sure you agree with me that this is not a solution, even though it would solve the problem of GCs, and it would make GCs much
Who knows if you have the military capacity I am sure you would have attempted to carry out what you claim above, this makes me feel that I am right in wanting the Turkish army to continue protecting us as the undertones you convey are very real and without them who knows what position we would be in if were alive to tell the tale.
The safeguards are imperative to a solution otherwise TCs will not agree to anything and the north can become part of Turkey 100%, this way everyone loses but we can all say we did it together, we will not be a minority in a purely GC ruled country, noway.
If we ever have the military capacity do to such things then believe me, you would be much safer being our compatriot with whom we live in peace togehter and have common interests, rather than be the enemy who occupies one third of our country.
And I repeat: I have no problem with safeguards for you. What I have a problem with is using safeguard as an excuse to violate our rights and steal our land.