Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

Ultimately the use of the words, "two constituent states" in that articles already deems the entire process as a failure in my opinion. We are seeking a B-Communal structure! Not two inter-states as part of a Turkish inststed Confederal Republic. I am not optimistic.

The United States of America seem to get along quite well.

I am quite optimistic when I read what Talat and Christofias say. I get quite pessimistic when I read what many of the contributors to this forum say.

You want to show me where it says that only Puerto Ricans can reside and vote in Montana?

Puerto Rica is not one of the 50 states. It has some sort of associated territory status, along with some Pacific islands.

Have I missed something subtle?

[DT.]

Ultimately the use of the words, "two constituent states" in that articles already deems the entire process as a failure in my opinion. We are seeking a B-Communal structure! Not two inter-states as part of a Turkish inststed Confederal Republic. I am not optimistic.

The United States of America seem to get along quite well.

I am quite optimistic when I read what Talat and Christofias say. I get quite pessimistic when I read what many of the contributors to this forum say.

You want to show me where it says that only Puerto Ricans can reside and vote in Montana?

Puerto Rica is not one of the 50 states. It has some sort of associated territory status, along with some Pacific islands.

Have I missed something subtle?

You have observer, you were saying what's wrong with the way the states have been functioning...I am merely pointing out that there are no racist clauses in the US constitution regarding certain ethnicities having to be majorities in certain states and certain other ethnic groups not being allowed to vote in those states.

[observer]

Andros,

You refer to Cyprus as a tiny island. I'm not really making a political point, only pointing out that we are not that tiny, since according to Wikipedia, of the 222 countries around, 66 (or about 30%) have poulations smaller than Cyprus. I was surprised to find it was that many myself. It includes a few 'confetti' colonies, but these days they are all largely self-governing and have a large say in their external affairs (Gibraltar and Falklands for example). How they organize elections in the Pitcairn Island (pop. 50) I don't know. Maybe thay all take a week's turn at being President!

[observer]

DT

You have observer, you were saying what's wrong with the way the states have been functioning...I am merely pointing out that there are no racist clauses in the US constitution regarding certain ethnicities having to be majorities in certain states and certain other ethnic groups not being allowed to vote in those states.

Thank you for clearing that up (Sorry not to post the whole thread but it does take up a lot of space and anyone who is that interested can look above).

I think that your remark (race rather than nationality) rather illustrates my point. Every country has its own history. A Puerto Rican, living in Montana, has the option to vote Democrat or Republican. He might be slightly swayed if the candidate of one of the parties is of Puerto Rican extraction, but in general the primary motives in deciding how he will vote are political.

As matters stand at the moment in Cyprus, because of our history, I believe that nearly all TCs would vote for a TC, and all GCs would vote for a GC. That's the way it is, and I wish it was not.

As a starting point, I would like to see voting in Cyprus based on the principal that you can live wherever you want in the BBF but when it comes to voting we adopt rules close to those of the EU - vote for local and EU elections according to where you live, but vote for government according to your 'citizenship' (not being provocative, can't think of a new word). There are, for example, lots of Brits living in the RoC who do just that.

[Kikapu]

As matters stand at the moment in Cyprus, because of our history, I believe that nearly all TCs would vote for a TC, and all GCs would vote for a GC. That's the way it is, and I wish it was not.

As a starting point, I would like to see voting in Cyprus based on the principal that you can live wherever you want in the BBF but when it comes to voting we adopt rules close to those of the EU - vote for local and EU elections according to where you live, but vote for government according to your 'citizenship' (not being provocative, can't think of a new word). There are, for example, lots of Brits living in the RoC who do just that.

I have a better idea Observer. Rather than prescribing to Racist and undemocratic voting systems as you mentioned above, where you believe TC's and GC's will vote as a block, and for a short time that will be the case, regardless where they live, work, send their kids to school, pay taxes and so on, then why not just adopt a 2 major party system just like in the States, where ideology dictates whether one votes for a Republican or the Democrats. You can't tell me that in a two party system, the TC's and the GC's will not chose one or the other depending on their ideology and mix themselves politically. This is the only way the whole country can make sure that there won't be any 80%-20% votes against the TC's if votes were made as "blocks". Local and National elections then can be held with GC and TC participants in the government, because one is voting for the ideology of that party as well as the candidate themselves. So lets disband all these political parties from both sides, and ask everyone to adopt one of two major political parties, call them what you like. If neither appeals to the individual, then they can register as Independents and vote which ever way they wish depending which party is best suited to run the country.

If you ask people to pay taxes in one state and then tell them that they cannot vote in their local government because they are a TC or a GC, it will be the "Boston Tea Party" all over again, where the slogan is going to be,
"No Taxation without Representation" followed by an Independence call.....Lets not tempt fate too much, shall we.!!!

[Kifeas]

Ultimately the use of the words, "two constituent states" in that articles already deems the entire process as a failure in my opinion. We are seeking a B-Communal structure! Not two inter-states as part of a Turkish inststed Confederal Republic. I am not optimistic.

I must say that I see both positive and negative elements in Talat’s letter. The positive element is that he makes a distinction between the states and the communities, i.e. the aim for a partnership between the two communities (instead of the states) on the basis of political equality, and the equal status of the two states as a complementary, nevertheless separate entity set or level of the overall settlement! It is not clear though whether he equates the "people" (communities) with the states, as one integrated and interchangeable notion, or whether he understands them as two separate sets of entities that should be representing two separate levels of governing power. My strong suspicion, even though he makes no use of the "virgin birth" claim (another positive element,) is that he means the former than the later!

The negative elements are two. He refers to the two communities as people, instead of communities. There is a difference between the two terms in international law and politics. Two or more communities may constitute one people (the Cypriot people, as in the 1960 constitution; ) whereas a people itself, is the equivalent of the sum of all the citizens of a nation-state. Therefore, by referring to the two communities as “people,” he implies that in his mind they constitute two separate nation-states.

The second negative element is the reference he makes to the states as "constituent," instead of "component" ones! The difference is very thin and disguised, and such an attempt was also undertaken by the Anan plan. The first 3 versions of the A-plan made use of the term "component states," whereas the last two versions made use of the term "constituent states!" “Component states” implies they are integral parts (components) of the overall federal nation-state, deriving their inherent power through a devolution of this power from the central (federal) government to the component states! This notion may be achieved through an evolution of the 1960 RoC, from a bi-communal unitary nation-state into a bi-communal and a bi-zonal federative nation-state!

“Constituent states” may imply that they already exist as two separate and sovereign nation states, which come together into an agreement to constitute (produce) a central (federal) government, to which they will devolve part of their inherent constituent power. This notion, in the case of Cyprus, maybe achieved if we assume a “virgin birth” approach through which we ignore the existing legal status of the 1960 RoC as the single sovereign entity for the whole of Cyprus, and accept that that already there are “two legitimate people” on the basis of their own separate sovereign state entities. In other words, to ignore the historical and legal facts of this country, and to instantly accept the 1974 /75 fait accomplices as a legitimate (de jure) start up condition or basis ...since in reality there is no such thing like a “virgin birth” in this univerese!

It may also be the difference between a federation (component states) -like the most well known federations nowadays, vs. a confederation (constituent states!)

[Kifeas]

"My priority will be the salvation of this island, to reunify it with Turkish Cypriots under the umbrella of a bizonal, bicommunal federation," Christofias said before the election.
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:dYN1 ... cd=2&gl=uk

Seems like they are talking from the same script.

For someone that knows well the rhetoric of the two sides, no they are not talking from the same script! Read above!

[DT.]

double post

[observer]

As matters stand at the moment in Cyprus, because of our history, I believe that nearly all TCs would vote for a TC, and all GCs would vote for a GC. That's the way it is, and I wish it was not.

As a starting point, I would like to see voting in Cyprus based on the principal that you can live wherever you want in the BBF but when it comes to voting we adopt rules close to those of the EU - vote for local and EU elections according to where you live, but vote for government according to your 'citizenship' (not being provocative, can't think of a new word). There are, for example, lots of Brits living in the RoC who do just that.

I have a better idea Observer. Rather than prescribing to Racist and undemocratic voting systems as you mentioned above, where you believe TC's and GC's will vote as a block, and for a short time that will be the case, regardless where they live, work, send their kids to school, pay taxes and so on, then why not just adopt a 2 major party system just like in the States, where ideology dictates whether one votes for a Republican or the Democrats. You can't tell me that in a two party system, the TC's and the GC's will not chose one or the other depending on their ideology and mix themselves politically. This is the only way the whole country can make sure that there won't be any 80%-20% votes against the TC's if votes were made as "blocks". Local and National elections then can be held with GC and TC participants in the government, because one is voting for the ideology of that party as well as the candidate themselves. So lets disband all these political parties from both sides, and ask everyone to adopt one of two major political parties, call them what you like. If neither appeals to the individual, then they can register as Independents and vote which ever way they wish depending which party is best suited to run the country.

If you ask people to pay taxes in one state and then tell them that they cannot vote in their local government because they are a TC or a GC, it will be the "Boston Tea Party" all over again, where the slogan is going to be,
"No Taxation without Representation" followed by an Independence call.....Lets not tempt fate too much, shall we.!!!

Lovely in theory. Until Oracle (or her twin) stands as an independent, and Zan (or his twin) stands as an opposing independent. And I find it difficult to imagine all the career politicians agreeeing to their parties being disbanded!

A quick read through almost any thread on this forum, or a quick run through the internet, shows (IMHO) that we would be better going at a slower pace. The EU model of voting that I have described doesn't seem to have the Brits rioting in Paphos does it? The many Germans living in Spain are not rising up against the Spanish government are they?

[DT.]

Ultimately the use of the words, "two constituent states" in that articles already deems the entire process as a failure in my opinion. We are seeking a B-Communal structure! Not two inter-states as part of a Turkish inststed Confederal Republic. I am not optimistic.

I must say that I see both positive and negative elements in Talat’s letter. The positive element is that he makes a distinction between the states and the communities, i.e. the aim for a partnership between the two communities (instead of the states) on the basis of political equality, and the equal status of the two states as a complementary, nevertheless separate entity set or level of the overall settlement! It is not clear though whether he equates the "people" (communities) with the states, as one integrate and interchangeable notion, or whether he understands them as two separate sets of entities representing two separate levels of governing power. My strong suspicion, even though he makes no use of the "virgin birth" claim (another positive element,) is that he means the former than the later!

The negative elements are two. He refers to the two communities as people, instead of communities. There is a difference between the two terms in international law and politics. Two or more communities may constitute one people (the Cypriot people, as in the 1960 constitution; ) whereas a people itself, is the equivalent of the sum of all the citizens of a nation-state. Therefore, by referring to the two communities as “people,” he implies that in his mind they constitute two separate nation-states.

The second negative element is the reference he makes to the states as "constituent," instead of "component" ones! The difference is very thin and disguised, and such an attempt was also undertaken by the Anan plan. The first 3 versions of the A-plan made use of the term "component states," whereas the last two versions made use of the term "constituent states!" “Component states” implies they are integral parts (components) of the overall federal nation-state, deriving their inherent power from the devolution of this power, from the central (federal) government to the states! This notion may be achieved through an evolution of the 1960 RoC, from a bi-communal unitary state into a bi-communal and bi-zonal federative nation state!

“Constituent states” may imply that they already exist as two separate and sovereign nation states, which come together into an agreement to constitute (produce) a central (federal) government, to which they will devolve part of their inherent constituent power. This notion, in the case of Cyprus, maybe achieved if we assume a “virgin birth” approach through which we ignore the existing legal status of the 1960 RoC as the single sovereign entity for the whole of Cyprus, and accept that that already there are “two legitimate people” on the basis of their own separate sovereign state entities. In other words, to ignore the historical and legal facts of this country, and to instantly accept the 1974 /75 fait accomplices as a legitimate (de jure) start up condition or basis ...since in reality there is no such thing like a “virgin birth” in this univerese!

It may also be the difference between a federation (component states) -like the most well known federations nowadays, vs. a confederation (constituent states!)

The next thing you'll hear is the De Soto invented word "Sovereignly". Where the 2 states will make up a sovereign state but each will sovereignly act in their own state.