Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I am starting this thread to make a few questions regarding BBF to Greek Cypriots only. I ask this because otherwise I see this thread reaching page 15 with totally unrelated posts in it. If you are not a Greek Cypriot and you want to discuss somehting in this thread then you can start a new thread.

So...

During the elections campaign there was an argument regarding "BBF with the right content". Some said that there was no need to say about "the right content" because what this "BBF" is, is somehting clear.

So the first question is: Do you think it is clear what this "BBF" is? If yes, then explain to us what you think it is, and tell us if you accept it. If you think it is not clear, then move to the second question.

The second question is: What do you think "BBF" is? Is there a kind of "BBF" that you would accept, and a kind of "BBF" that you wouldn't? What are your "red lines" that if are not met you would definitely reject a "BBF solution" that does not meet them?

I will start by answering my own qustions:

1) I think the term "BBF" is something very vague. The only thing that is clear about it, is that it will be a federation made by 2 federal states, and in each of the states the majority will be one of the two communities.

Beyond this, anything goes. It is not clear what kind of federation it will be. USA, Russia and Germany are all federations, but are all different, and some even bring confederations into the mix, like Switzerland. So what federation?

Then the "bizonal" part. It is clear that we are talking about two "zones", but there was never any agreement about how big each zone should be. So the most important part of "bizonal" is unclear.

Then the "Bicommunal" part. This is the most unclear because there is no other working example of such thing. Does it just mean that in Cyprus there will continue to be two communities? Does it go along with the "F" to mean that each state will have a majority from each community? Does it mean that the power will be shared on community level, and not on citizen level or state level?

Because it is so vague "BBF" can by anything. I could write some solution that would meet all the requirements of BBF that would be perfect for us, and very bad for TCs, in a similar way that the Annan plan was perfect for TCs and very bad for us.

However this is more about the "red lines" rather than a perfect solution based on "BBF".

These are my red lines:

1) It should be a true federation, like USA for example, not a confederation like Switzerland or even worst like Annan plan. This means the central goverment is clearly above the states, and the power of the states themselves is in handling their internal affairs. The president of the country is elected by the people of the country as a whole (or proportionately) and he has real power in internal and external affairs.

2) The land distribution of the two "zones" should be a lot more fair than it was with the Annan plan.

3) The states should not be "pure" with one ethnic group. E.g. the "north state" should be able to have 30-35% GCs.

4) Both component states should be Cypriot states with no references to "Greek" or "Turkish", with similar laws and no kind of discriminations against any Cypriot.

5) There should be just one flag, one anthem, and one citizenship.

And some things not related to "BBF":

1) The removal of Turkish troops should be immediate. If the Turkish troops do not leave within 1-2 months then the agreement would be null and void.

2) Most Settlers should be re-repatriated to Turkey.

3) Guarantees should be given by EU and NATO, not by any individual countries.

[bill cobbett]

I would participate in this poll if the g before Cypriot was removed.

[purdey]

Does this question include those with dual citizenship,and with land and property on both sides of the divide ?

[Piratis]

I will clarify what I mean by "GCs" but lets not get our of topic.

In 1959 all Cypriots where divided into Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots. In reality the division is more like "Turkish Cypriots" and "Rest of Cypriots".

Here I am referring to all Cypriots that belong to the "Greek Cypriot community".

[humanist]

Piratis nothing is clear, however for the time being lets settle for what appears to be a fair and just solution and hopefully in the future both communitites will breed evolved and enlightened beings who actually want to trully unite this land and its people.

Lets go with the a bizonal model close to the one proposed in the AP because the TC's liked (may be), with the the Brits get the hell out of Cyprus so that the so called GC zone is joint and is continous and also it is time for the British colonisation ideology is out of our land. Or the British can give Cyprus in exchange opart of their territory, Lets see how they react to that proposal.

Most importantly for me is that all refugees are given the right of return to their properties more importantly homes as oposed to vacant land. That the TC's occupying GC property if the rightful owner id to return are rehoused of purpose built estates on church or government owned land.

Turkish troops out of Cyprus immediately to pave the way for this bizonality to begin taking effect, settlers are looked at on individual cases, most of them return, other are given EU citizen rights.

Each of the states are given autonomy to run their own affairs with some remaining the responsibiluty of the Federal State, ie police force, education, natural resources such as solar powered electricity, water and gas.

In the North State (if we go North and South) there will be a majority of TC's in parlaiament for that State and in the Southern State there will be majority GC in parliament, with Federal Government having an 18- 82 % parlaiamentarians respectively.

[Viewpoint]

humanist

Turkish troops out of Cyprus immediately to pave the way for this bizonality to begin taking effect, settlers are looked at on individual cases, most of them return, other are given EU citizen rights.

What about the GC army?

How will you decide which settlers go and which stay?

In the North State (if we go North and South) there will be a majority of TC's in parlaiament for that State and in the Southern State there will be majority GC in parliament, with Federal Government having an 18- 82 % parlaiamentarians respectively.

Will the 82% be able to vote what they want through? do you see any dangers?

[DT.]

I responded bu the way you've worded the questions leaves little room for any other answwer.

[Oracle]

Piratis, thank you for presenting us with this exercise in re-focusing on the Cyprus Problem.

For all it is worth (zero) here is my attempt at tackling your thread.

1. Do you think it is clear what this "BBF" is? If yes, then explain to us what you think it is, and tell us if you accept it. If you think it is not clear, then move to the second question.

No

2. What do you think "BBF" is?

It is a separation of a country into two component states or parts which allow a duplication of administrative departments. These departments function with a preset bias set to represent one of the groups of people more than the other. The jurisdictional limits are set over a pre-designated area (zone) so that the mobile community knows which laws apply where. Other than that, the individuals have extensive freedom to move between the component parts of the BBF, but observe the laws of that federal component (state or zone) in which they are present.

3. Is there a kind of "BBF" that you would accept, and a kind of "BBF" that you wouldn't?

Although BBF may be suitable in other situations I do not think it is the right solution for Cyprus, nor can it be modified in any way to make it “fit” Cyprus. Its basic concept is one of separation to seal differences between two groups of people. But where do you stop? Years later, within each division would arise further variation of opinions and desires. Do you then apply BBF to the smaller state again? … and so, on until each man becomes an island!

Bi-communal no longer describes Cyprus, let alone for the future. Why should only the top two communities be considered, why not the top three, or top four etc. ..... thus verging on the ridiculous.

Besides, there is only one community: comprising the GC community, which accepts all other legitimate Cypriot citizens as equal in rights and voting power.

Piratis, my worry is that too many negotiating favours would be used up to optimise BBF for Cyprus, when it is unsuitable from the start.

How long do we spend deciding on the size and whereabouts of the “zones”? Whatever we decide enough people would remain unhappy, that they would present future unrest.

Also, the means by which we will mutate our Country is unsavoury. If BBF was a future worthwhile goal for Cyprus it should have been carried out in a Democratic manner. Instead now, we would have this change forced upon us by an external, zealous agent who has used its magnitude to invade, occupy and blackmail us into submission.

Accepting enforced BBF condemns as forever as victims, as well as guilty accessories to this unnecessary transformation of the unitised Cyprus which deserves restoration.

4. What are your "red lines" that if are not met you would definitely reject a "BBF solution" that does not meet them?

Because I do not accept BBF as right under any circumstances for Cyprus, the "red line" stops there.

But I’ll delete sections of your "red lines" leaving those phrases with which I agree:


i)

The president of the country is elected by the people of the country as a whole (or proportionately) and he has real power in internal and external affairs.

ii)

No references to "Greek" or "Turkish", with similar laws and no kind of discriminations against any Cypriot.

iii)

There should be just one flag, one anthem, and one citizenship.

.... and just one Official language, Greek.

iv)

The removal of Turkish troops should be immediate.

v)

... settlers should be re-repatriated to Turkey.

.... with provision for applying for RoC citizenship as non-EU immigrants, but through the legitimate channels.

vi)

Guarantees should be given by EU and NATO, not by any individual countries.

[humanist]

Oracle, well done on your response. I like it.

However given the shit that we are in I believe we need to solve this problem and hope that in the future with education and Cypriotism we will have leaders that will devote themselves to truly united Cyprus. In the meantime I say Turkish troops out of Cyprus immediately. I call on the international community to act and defend Cyprus and its people against the continuing Turkish violation of human rights of all Cypriots.

[Piratis]

I responded bu the way you've worded the questions leaves little room for any other answwer.

The poll is just a small part of this thread. You could just write your opinion about it.

Oracle, what you described sounds more like your ideal than your "red lines". Sure, the Turks and most TCs are not only uncompromising, but they expect gains on our loss as well. But that is not about them, this is about us and our island.

I always said that there are can be many agreements, but only one solution. Here we are just talking about the next agreement and not a final solution.

A pre-requisite to this next agreement is not be to bring to Cyprus the ideal, but to create something better than what we have today without at the same time making a real solution in the future impossible.