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Demilitarisation of Cyprus

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Oracle » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:58 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Oracle wrote:CopperLine ...

Cyprus is no longer a single military entity. It is part of a greater whole.

Your data as presented, are not comprehensive, merely partial, and hence invalid, for consideration towards your hypothesis.

Cyprus need only have enough to act as a deterrent towards Turkey initiating a launch.



What deterrent do you talk about OrPh. No deterent would stop Turkey from doing what she wants. The only deterent is the Cypriot people, United. Do you think that waving a red rug at Turkey would stop her in her tracks? Get real please.


You know I am uncomfortable talking about weapons .... :shock:

But what I mean is, what little military force Cyprus possesses (since CopperLine has sniffed his nose at our size) .... should be enough to hold off an initial attack, because now Turkey knows reinforcements from our EU partners are only hours away.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:06 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Oracle wrote:CopperLine ...

Cyprus is no longer a single military entity. It is part of a greater whole.

Your data as presented, are not comprehensive, merely partial, and hence invalid, for consideration towards your hypothesis.

Cyprus need only have enough to act as a deterrent towards Turkey initiating a launch.



What deterrent do you talk about OrPh. No deterent would stop Turkey from doing what she wants. The only deterent is the Cypriot people, United. Do you think that waving a red rug at Turkey would stop her in her tracks? Get real please.


Deniz, now that we have read the above, I can assure you we have became so terrified that from early tomorrow morning we will raise a white flag of surrender, and immediately sign to Turkey and your leadership any agreement they will place in front of us as a solution!
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:13 pm

It'd be helpful if some of you got a grip on reality.

If Turkey did want to attack RoC then the necessary military build up would be blindingly obvious, weeks even months beforehand. The idea that Cyprus would need a force strong enough to give EU partners chance to get their act together is simply laughable. Oracle confuses the meaning of 'deterrent' with 'delaying'. If a Turkish attack occurred that would mean that the deterrent had failed, and therefore can be shown to have been insufficient !

But this idea of a Turkish attack on Cyprus is just fantasy, albeit that grossly inflating the idea of imminent threat of attack is a historically well proven way of inducing public paranoia, expanding military budgets and generally militarising society.
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Postby Oracle » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:21 pm

CopperLine wrote:It'd be helpful if some of you got a grip on reality.

If Turkey did want to attack RoC then the necessary military build up would be blindingly obvious, weeks even months beforehand. The idea that Cyprus would need a force strong enough to give EU partners chance to get their act together is simply laughable. Oracle confuses the meaning of 'deterrent' with 'delaying'. If a Turkish attack occurred that would mean that the deterrent had failed, and therefore can be shown to have been insufficient !

But this idea of a Turkish attack on Cyprus is just fantasy, albeit that grossly inflating the idea of imminent threat of attack is a historically well proven way of inducing public paranoia, expanding military budgets and generally militarising society.


Aye Aye Captain CopperLine, deterrent and delaying .. understood.

But because Turkey knows the "insignificant" Cypriot military will nevertheless act to delay her long enough for the reinforcements to arrive ... it is acting as a deterrent .....

Thus far, effective! :D
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Re: Demilitarisation of Cyprus

Postby Kikapu » Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:55 pm

CopperLine wrote:I think DT. is right. Demilitarise the whole island.

It is a fundamental mistake to believe that Cyprus, whether united or partitioned, would ever have the economic or financial wherewithall to establish and maintain its own military force which would have even a deterrent effect.

Look at (a) the military budget of Cyprus (RoC on its own, or RoC plus TRNC) and then look at the military budget of Turkey, Greece, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt i.e, Cyprus' immediate neighbours. See the authoritative : http://first.sipri.org/non_first/milex.php

Cyprus 2005 = 1.4% of GDP 2006 = US$239m

Turkey 2005 = 2.8% of GDP 2006 = US$11291m

Greece 2005 = 4.1% of GDP 2006 = US$9642m

Lebanon 2005 = 4.5% of GDP 2006 = US$899m

Syria 2005 = 5.1% of GDP 2006 = US$5526m

Israel 2005 = 9.7% of GDP 2006 = US$11373m

Egypt 2005 = 2.8% of GDP 2006 = US$2710m


Let's put the above in proportion : Turkey spends about the same in 1 week what Cyprus spends in 1 year on the military.

Then consider that (b) of these only Turkey and possibly (but I don't really think so) Greece can be said to have any 'territorial ambitions'.

On the assumption that Cyprus does not have territorial ambitions against any of these countries - I've never heard anyone suggest this - then the need for a military to face an external military threat is either simply non-existent or, at most, simply impossible to maintain (viz. Turkey). The active use of the military of course assumes that there is the political will to do so, and the record of the last thirty four years is that RoC has not had the political will nor the military capacity to militarily eject Turkey from Cyprus.

Of these neighbours all have maritime claims which do or might conflict with Cyprus claims (again whether of a united or partitioned Cyprus). Therefore if any armed service is needed, then there may be a case for maritime - not military - forces.

The blunt reality is that Cyprus was, is and will remain a military minnow. The only practical target of a Cyprus military is ... Cypriots.

Let's just demilitarise. The immediate effect of that is to pull the rug from under the feet of the Turkish military's justification for continued presence on the island. Demilitarisation is a win for Turkish Cypriots, foir Greek Cypriots, for all islanders, and for peace.



CopperLine,

Asking for Cyprus to demilitarize just because Turkey spends more money than Cyprus is hardly a justification for any nation to remain defenseless. If that is the case, then Turkey should demilitarize because Russia is spending more than Turkey and any war between them, Russia would have the upper hand because they have many more weapons than Turkey. But of course we all know, that short of using Nuclear weapons, it does not mean that Russia will be successful in defeating Turkey with conventional weapons despite having more toys. USA the Superpower with one of the most advance military forces in the world who spends about the same amount in Iraq and Afghanistan per month, about 12 Billion US Dollars as Turkey spends in a whole year, and lets not forget USA's annual Defence spending is around 500 Billion US Dollars, cannot defeat few thousand ragtag fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan with US troops around 200,000. USA, Turkey, Israel may be able to defeat the enemy in an open conventional warfare, but when it comes to "guerrilla warfare" they are "flatfooted" just as Israel has found out with the Palestinians and Turkey with the PKK. Turkey has 100,000 troops along the border with Iraq and yet the PKK can come into Turkey and kill Turkish Troops at will. In the last 30 years, the PKK has proven over and over again, that Turkey's great military power is ineffective against them.

The only major war the USA with it's mighty military power it ever lost (until Iraq) was in Vietnam, because the West is not use to fighting guerrilla wars, but the enemy with low budgets have taken a lesson from Vietnam and are now using it themselves against Western military might.

So lets assume that Cyprus can have 100,000 trained militia force and give them guerrilla warfare training, I would doubt any nation would want to try and invade Cyprus with their conventional military force, despite with a small budget. But even the military budget you have given above for Cyprus, it is bigger than Turkey's per capita as well as per square kilometers to be protected. Also spending the money for defensive purposes only, which Turkey does for both, defensive and offensive, Cyprus actually is in better position.

Switzerland is a peaceful and neutral country. They stay out of wars and no one else bothers them. You would think they would not need a military force, but they have a very advance military force including Swiss Air Force, even though they do not have a regular army. They are mostly trained militia force, for defensive purpose only. It is often said here, that
"Switzerland does not have an Army, because Switzerland is an Army", meaning that the Swiss can get thousands on duty overnight, because they are already trained and their weapons are at home. All men need to do compulsory service, but voluntary for women.

Military of Switzerland

Manpower

Military age 17-34
Conscription 19-34 years of age obligatorily
36 for subaltern officers, 52 for staff officers and higher

Available for military service
1,707,694 males, age 19–49 (2005 est.),
1,662,099 females, age 19–49 (2005 est.)

Fit for military service
1,375,889 males, age 19–49 (2005 est.),
1,342,945 females, age 19–49 (2005 est.)

Reaching military age annually
46,319 males (2005 est.),
43,829 females (2005 est.)

Expenditures
Budget $3.1 billion (FY98)
Percent of GDP 1% (2006 est.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland


As you can see from the above, one can spend relatively little amount of money, and still have a very effective defensive militia force.

My only concern is, can the TC's and GC's can fight side by side to defend Cyprus against any enemy, domestic or foreign effectively. If Turkey were to attack in the future, what will the TC's and remaining settlers do. Will they take arms against Turkey and same for the GC's, will they take arms against Greece. The British won't receive the same consideration if push came to shove by any Cypriot. The Swiss Germans, French, and Italians will fight against the Germans, the French and the Italians, because they see themselves Swiss first and will protect their land against anyone. I'm not so sure that the GC's and the TC's have the same commitment against their "cousins".
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Postby pantheman » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:08 pm

I wish Cyprus would follow Irans lead and attempt to obtain nuclear weapons.

Its the only sure way of keeping anyone out.

Rather than spend it on basic weaponary items that need PEOPLE to use them, they should look further ahead.

I am sure there are enough organisations out there that would be happy to assist.

Facts and figures, they are OK when it comes to trying to raise finances within government, but fighting and killing is a different ball game.

If we can't beat them with conventional equipment, there is only one answer. Nukes.

That would make a level palying field (excusing the pun)

:evil:
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:17 pm

Kikapu,

I'm not arguing that just because of the huge difference in military budget that Cyprus should give way to Turkey. Not at all.

What I am arguing is that for a Cypriot defence force (as opposed to an alliance/EU/whoever else defence force) it has to be credible, at least up to being an effective deterrent. So yes you are right about the Turkey-Russia example, so that despite the huge difference in military spending, Turkey's military capability remains credible up to and beyond the point of deterrence.

Cyprus currently and foreseeably does not have that credibility or capacity. To even have any chance to secure such credibility and capacity Cyprus would have to increase its military spending astronomically both in absolute terms and in proportion to GDP. The political question is, frankly, is the spending worth it ? In other words would such a move make Cyprus and Cypriots more secure than today ? Would it guarantee stability more than the position now ?

On top of this the issue, to my mind, is whether and how changes in the military - north and south, Cypriot and foreign - can contribute to peace, resolution, and confidence and trust. Increasing military budgets, entering arms races, buying the latest killing machines, and so on does not increase security for any party let alone lend itself to peace. In that light demilitarisation does offer a means of building confidence, trust, etc, strikes me as a laudable proposal.

Going back to an earlier part of the original thread, opening the Lokmaci crossing at negligible cost will do infinitely more for trust and confidence building than spending millions of dollars on buying the latest ways to kill people.
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Postby repulsewarrior » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:19 pm

supramilitarisation is the solution which will provide immediate results. demilitarisation allows Turkey an opportunity to act that otherwise would be unacceptable to any other State. therefore, if the world sees in this a threat, it should be prepared to dilute Turkey's influence by adding their own to it.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:33 pm

CopperLine, can you possibly provide an inventory of the two sides’ armed forces currently in Cyprus?

PS: RoC spending on defense is around 3.5% of the GDP on the average, at least throughout the last 20 years until 2002! GDP in 2007 was around 18 billion dollars and the 3.5% of it is around 630 million USD. Your figure above is definitely wrong, unless it was an exceptional year in which no equipment purchases were made!
Last edited by Kifeas on Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:34 pm

Repulsewarrior,

'Supramilitarisation is the solution ...' OK, so Cyprus militarises massively. What will Turkey do ? If Turkey responds in kind, then what will Greece do ? Or Syria ? And if Syria militarises still further, what will Israel do ?

'Supramilitarisation' is not a solution: it simply compounds, deepens and sharpens the problem.
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