Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

The Turkish Settlers are people like the rest of us with the same kind of human weaknesses but also with many examples of very humane and altruistic behavior. Why would they be any different? Anybody that makes an assumption that a person should be bad just because he belongs to a certain race is nothing but racist.

The problem with the Settlers is not whether they are nice people or bad people. The problem is that the Turkish State (or army if you prefer) has intentionally used these people in order to commit a crime against Cyprus and change the demographics of our island.

Cyprus can not be responsible for 10s of thousands of Turks, Chinese, Indians, Egyptians etc, no matter how nice those people are. Their own countries should take care of them, and if their own countries have acted criminally and illegally in a way that harms them, then their country should be responsible to compensate them for any harm it has caused to them.

The cases of Titina Loizidou show that Turkey not only would have to return the properties to the GC refugees, but also that she will have to compensate them for the 34 years that their properties were illegally kept away from them. That means billions of dollars in compensations that Turkey is obligated to pay to us for the 34 years of illegal occupation. Still, according to Annan plan Turkey would not pay a cent!

Well, thats fine with me. If Turkey finally piss off from our country, then we want nothing else from her. They can keep all those billions that they own us. However, at the very least, they should take their own citizens back to Turkey, somehting which they are obligated to do, and use part of the money that should have been otherwise paid to us, to compensate them in such a way that every one of them would be happy to go.

Now, if there is a settler that would accept no compensation, no matter how high it is, and he prefers to stay in Cyprus instead, then personally I would be fine if Turkey pays that very high compensation to Cyprus, and Cyprus in return will give citizenship to that Turkish citizen.

Thats the correct way to solve this issue. Not to victimize the Settlers, obviously not to victimize again the Cypriots, but for the one who committed the crime (Turkey) to take its own responsibilities.

Without doubt,Piratis, the rights of Cypriots have to be the priority in any solution. As long as there is one real Cypriot who wants to return to his/her house/land whatever,settlers must give way. As simple as that.
You know as well as I do that most Cypriots are the innocent victims in this saga. Most of the settlers too are the victims,pawns in an international conspiracy to divide and rule our nation. To stop us from becoming one people,one country,one nation...The conspiracy does not begin and end with Turkey...We must never forget or ignore the role of the Americans and the British in this sorry state of affairs. If Turkey is occupying 36% of Cyprus territory,and trying her best to rob the TCs of any say in their own future,she is doing it with American and British blessing. I have no doubt that one day Turkey will have to observe international laws and remove herself from our country. But how are we going to get rid of the British??? Of the clandestine American presence???
I am simply frustrated with people who smallmindedly point the finger at other victims and refuse to allow them even the simplest act of humanity or compassion. This scares the hell out of me...Dehumanising people is prelude to justifying the extermination of them...We have seen this time and time again in history...And attitudes like this gives the TCs the justification to demand special treatment...I am surprised that obviously intelligent people cannot see this simple logic...

[Oracle]

Well done, nevertheless at having a stab at justification.

I am doubting a fourth hand story not an individual, or human feelings or any of that over-sentimentalised propaganda of yours, Bir.

... you are choosing to believe the story because it suits your agenda.

You have chosen to empathise with the settlers.

I have chosen to empathise with the GCs denied their homes.

The original victims here were the GCs.

The settlers chose their destiny.

The GCs had no choice.

Why are you so high and mighty that you decide your view is more worthy than mine?

You try to shame and emotionally blackmail me into adopting your chosen stance by bringing Hitler into this.

Hitler had his methods and the Turks have their methods, and tomes can be written on their overlaps.....

Why are the GC victims not worthy of this analogy ... why do you not cast them into the role of the Jews who also had no choice?

The Settlers had a choice ... they made an active decision to improve their lives by moving into free homes.

The GCs did not have a choice. They had to give up their homes. They were driven out.

Who is the victim and who is the victor right now Bir?.

I think you have lost your True Cypriot hat

I have lost nothing,Oracle...
Nobody in this forum can deny my credentials when it comes to empathy and compassion for the GCs,least of all yourself...
I am just frustrated with people like yourself. People who are totally incapable of putting themselves in anybody else's shoes. People who just keep pointing the finger at the other side,without any real understanding of the historical and political reasons of our "little" conflict...People who bring a very complex equation to a simple formula,and insist that one and only one side is the guilty party...It is people like you who have prevented a solution all these years. People like you who impede any attempts of building trust,respect,and understanding between our communities. People like you who are totally blind to the suffering of "the other".It must be very comforting to believe what you believe,to keep your head in the sand,to dish out poison at every opportunity. But you are not helping us advance one inch on the road of peace and a just solution...Keep up the good work...And kiss goodbye to any solution in your lifetime...

You are too emotional

You fail to see you too suffer from that which you accuse me of ... but have the added nuisance of thinking you actually can see the other side.

Instead of sides ... leave your (fine) sentimental emotions aside and reduce each argument to find some logic, whilst accepting as a Human (i.e. not a machine) you will have bias.

As always though Bir...... you have given me an idea.

[michalis5354]

I have personal story sad though but gives hope . On our way back from a trip to Apostolos Andreas we met a young 12 y o kurdish boy working in the field in a farm feeding the animals and wanted to go to Rizokarapso where his family and friends were living. I stopped the car to take the boy as there was no other way for him to go home . So we took the boy in our vehicle. We found out that not only he spoke Greek but also Turkish. He could understand almost everything we were talking about. When I was at his age I could only speak Greek and not even fluently. We realised afterwards that he came after the 1974 invasion and was living with his parents in rizokarapso among with his other GC freiends. He was so intelligent and guided us around with lots of information in Greek language. So hospitable young boy , a gentleman but also a mini Settler.........His name was Mustafa and it reflects the human dimension. In case of a settlement such a settler would be an asset in a united Cyprus.

A sad story with a sad song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp_-Tl1kjYs

[Piratis]

The Turkish Settlers are people like the rest of us with the same kind of human weaknesses but also with many examples of very humane and altruistic behavior. Why would they be any different? Anybody that makes an assumption that a person should be bad just because he belongs to a certain race is nothing but racist.

The problem with the Settlers is not whether they are nice people or bad people. The problem is that the Turkish State (or army if you prefer) has intentionally used these people in order to commit a crime against Cyprus and change the demographics of our island.

Cyprus can not be responsible for 10s of thousands of Turks, Chinese, Indians, Egyptians etc, no matter how nice those people are. Their own countries should take care of them, and if their own countries have acted criminally and illegally in a way that harms them, then their country should be responsible to compensate them for any harm it has caused to them.

The cases of Titina Loizidou show that Turkey not only would have to return the properties to the GC refugees, but also that she will have to compensate them for the 34 years that their properties were illegally kept away from them. That means billions of dollars in compensations that Turkey is obligated to pay to us for the 34 years of illegal occupation. Still, according to Annan plan Turkey would not pay a cent!

Well, thats fine with me. If Turkey finally piss off from our country, then we want nothing else from her. They can keep all those billions that they own us. However, at the very least, they should take their own citizens back to Turkey, somehting which they are obligated to do, and use part of the money that should have been otherwise paid to us, to compensate them in such a way that every one of them would be happy to go.

Now, if there is a settler that would accept no compensation, no matter how high it is, and he prefers to stay in Cyprus instead, then personally I would be fine if Turkey pays that very high compensation to Cyprus, and Cyprus in return will give citizenship to that Turkish citizen.

Thats the correct way to solve this issue. Not to victimize the Settlers, obviously not to victimize again the Cypriots, but for the one who committed the crime (Turkey) to take its own responsibilities.

Without doubt,Piratis, the rights of Cypriots have to be the priority in any solution. As long as there is one real Cypriot who wants to return to his/her house/land whatever,settlers must give way. As simple as that.
You know as well as I do that most Cypriots are the innocent victims in this saga. Most of the settlers too are the victims,pawns in an international conspiracy to divide and rule our nation. To stop us from becoming one people,one country,one nation...The conspiracy does not begin and end with Turkey...We must never forget or ignore the role of the Americans and the British in this sorry state of affairs. If Turkey is occupying 36% of Cyprus territory,and trying her best to rob the TCs of any say in their own future,she is doing it with American and British blessing. I have no doubt that one day Turkey will have to observe international laws and remove herself from our country. But how are we going to get rid of the British??? Of the clandestine American presence???
I am simply frustrated with people who smallmindedly point the finger at other victims and refuse to allow them even the simplest act of humanity or compassion. This scares the hell out of me...Dehumanising people is prelude to justifying the extermination of them...We have seen this time and time again in history...And attitudes like this gives the TCs the justification to demand special treatment...I am surprised that obviously intelligent people cannot see this simple logic...

I agree with you Bir. The only way to get rid of the bases is if Cypriot people are truly united. It is not a coinsidence that the British sparked the animosity between the two communities in the 50s and then imposed the divisive 1960 agreements on the Cypriot people. They knew that doing so was the best way to ensure that parts of our island would remain under their colonial rule.

Of course not even unity can totally free Cyprus from the Americans, since today they are the only super power and they have a say almost everywhere. But if we are united then surely we can achieve a much better deal for us, instead of the current rib off. The British bases in Cyprus must be the biggest overseas military bases the British and Americans have, and still we do not get a single cent from them.

[miltiades]

Well done, nevertheless at having a stab at justification.

I am doubting a fourth hand story not an individual, or human feelings or any of that over-sentimentalised propaganda of yours, Bir.

... you are choosing to believe the story because it suits your agenda.

You have chosen to empathise with the settlers.

I have chosen to empathise with the GCs denied their homes.

The original victims here were the GCs.

The settlers chose their destiny.

The GCs had no choice.

Why are you so high and mighty that you decide your view is more worthy than mine?

You try to shame and emotionally blackmail me into adopting your chosen stance by bringing Hitler into this.

Hitler had his methods and the Turks have their methods, and tomes can be written on their overlaps.....

Why are the GC victims not worthy of this analogy ... why do you not cast them into the role of the Jews who also had no choice?

The Settlers had a choice ... they made an active decision to improve their lives by moving into free homes.

The GCs did not have a choice. They had to give up their homes. They were driven out.

Who is the victim and who is the victor right now Bir?.

I think you have lost your True Cypriot hat

I have lost nothing,Oracle...
Nobody in this forum can deny my credentials when it comes to empathy and compassion for the GCs,least of all yourself...
I am just frustrated with people like yourself. People who are totally incapable of putting themselves in anybody else's shoes. People who just keep pointing the finger at the other side,without any real understanding of the historical and political reasons of our "little" conflict...People who bring a very complex equation to a simple formula,and insist that one and only one side is the guilty party...It is people like you who have prevented a solution all these years. People like you who impede any attempts of building trust,respect,and understanding between our communities. People like you who are totally blind to the suffering of "the other".It must be very comforting to believe what you believe,to keep your head in the sand,to dish out poison at every opportunity. But you are not helping us advance one inch on the road of peace and a just solution...Keep up the good work...And kiss goodbye to any solution in your lifetime...

You are too emotional

You fail to see you too suffer from that which you accuse me of ... but have the added nuisance of thinking you actually can see the other side.

Instead of sides ... leave your (fine) sentimental emotions aside and reduce each argument to find some logic, whilst accepting as a Human (i.e. not a machine) you will have bias.

As always though Bir...... you have given me an idea.

Bir is the one member on this forum who has gained the respect of every reasonable thinking Cypriot because he has risen above the boundaries of blind nationalism and his contributions on the Cyprob are admirable .
It is known by all that I have a tremendous respect for this true Cypriot , a man who has never deviated from his position , has earned the respect that he has by his wise comments and views. I have never questioned one iota of Birs posts. I have posted a great deal of "colourful "and sometimes challenging and devisive posts on a number of issues , Bir has always posted sensible and wise posts.

Oracle , if all T/Cs had similar views to Bir's and all G/Cs similar views to YOURS !!! God help us !!
BUT IF ALL CYPRIOTS HAD BIRKIBRISLI'S VIEWS THEN THE CYPRUS PROBLEM WOULD BE SOLVED OVERNIGHT.

[Bananiot]

Well, we have gone through these on countless occasions Miltiades. I think that the only way to help our country is to embark on a process that can utilise any realistic options that still exist. This has to be done now, at this instance, and, totally exclude from the equation all utopias. For example, I remember the late Kyprianou repeating time and time again, that the Cyprob is easy to solve. All it takes, he argued, was for Turkey to remove the army. This is not just walking on the clouds but it demonstrates a total ignorance of how this world works.

Some members of this forum are also out of touch with the real world. Turkey, Britain, the USA and many others, are factors that are there and can not be deleted according to taste. Hence they must be taken into consideration when looking at the options. By shooting at them nothing good can be gained.

I should like to go back a bit. In 2003 the omens were extremely good for a final solution. In Turkey we had Erdogan who contrary to the conventional wisdom, admitted that the Cyprus issue was not solved in 1974 but it was there to be solved since it interfered with the tactical and strategic objectives of Turkey.

In the north we had a popular rising against Denktash and against anything he represented. In the south we were getting ready to gain accesion to the most exclusive club, the European Union.

In Greece we had Prime Minister Simitis who was a master tactician and timed his moves perfectly well.

The international community became heavily involved in the Cyprob believing that this was the time for solution.

Expectations were high but at this crucial time Christofias decided to bring Papadopoulos into the equation. Papadopoulos was a well known rejectionist and Turk hater whom Christofias trusted to bring down Klerides, because the silly man thought that he could not afford to lose another election, having lost the two previous ones (party before country). What happened next is pretty well known.

Birkibrisli says that the Turkish Cypriot community can now come back and claim everything that legally belong to it and that is the end of that. This, dear Birkibrisli, simply and plainly cannot happen. It is not an option. Thus, it will be a waste of precious time to even contemplate about it.

We are fast running short of time my friends. While in 2004, for example, we were negotiating on how many settlers will be allowed to stay out of a total of 120 000, we now have to ponder over another number that probably reaches 250 000. Such is the degree of the difficulty. Then, I have a sneaking suspicion that Talat will not be around next time of asking. If Erdogan shifts his support to the ex Eroglu party and his leader, it will be extremely difficult to hope for progress. Erdogan will base his policy on the EU future of Turkey and the prospects of gaining full membership. The parameters are so many ...

This is the reason I look back to 2003-2004 and point an accusing finger at all those in the Greek Cypriot community that failed to seize the opportunity and go all out for solution. Some lost the chance because they were simply too weak, politically that is, to understand the importance of those times. Others understood perfectly well what was happening and did their utmost best to halt the peace process because they cannot bear to share this country with our Turkish Cypriot compatriots. Papadopoulos led these people and preying on the phobias of the masses he so skilfully cultivated, he managed to turn the tie and create a majority opinion against not just the Annan Plan but against a solution that envisages bizonal, bicommunal federation.

Returning back to the present day I would say that I am not optimistic, despite the change in the south. Even if Christofias has the best intentions and even if he decides to stop listening to the nationalists of DIKO and EDEK, the situation in Turkey is very different to that in 2003-2004. If Turkey shows no zeal to have another crack at solution, Christofias will be more than happy to enjoy an easy ride in the Presidential Palace, looking after the faithful and preparing for the next elections.

What can we expect then? The best scenario is for Christofias to put Turkey to the test by declaring his readiness to embark on talks, straight away. If Turkey shows willingness we may begin to hope. If not, Turkey can do a Papadopoulos act and we can all observe the same film, played over backwards.

The talks of course, will concentrate on BBF and the political equality of the two comminities. Any other basis for the talks is doomed right from the world go. This is crucial and must be understood and accepted by all those in the Greek Cypriot community that long for a solution. It could be that in 2004 we were not ready for this because it was never explained properly and squarely to the people. This time there will be no excuses. For our part, the Christofias government must be ready to go ahead and if Erdogan is supporting, I have no doubt that Anastasiades will lend a helping hand. My worry is, however, that Turkey in 2008 will have a different agenda than Turkey in 2004.

[Piratis]

Bananiot, you confuse solution with "agreement". The two are not necessarily the same, and in the case of Annan plan the two where contradictory.

A solution is the one that solves the problem that we have, not just an agreement that would make our problem bigger and even more difficult to solve by legalizing the violations against us.

I like it how easily you say that anything that the other side rejects is utopian and can not happen, but you consider our side the whore that should accept whatever. No, it is equally utopian to expect that GCs will ever accept to make their own problem bigger so TCs will solve their problem and Turkey will remove the Cyprus obstacle from her EU accession.

What happened in 2004 is just one thing. Cyprus was about to enter the EU and that would create a problem to Turkey. The change in policy by Turkey, the change of Denctash with Talat and everything else was not a coincidence, but somehting that happened as a result. The Annan plan was designed to solve the problem of Turkey (not our problem), either by legalizing the illegalities in Cyprus and removing the international voice of Cypriots and any veto powers they would have in EU, or by throwing the blame of no solution to Greek Cypriots and declaring Turkey as innocent for the problem.

We are more than willing to share this country with the TC minority in a just and proportional way. But if some expect that we will return to a system like the one of the Ottoman rule, where people were divided between low class Christians and higher class Muslims then they can forget about it. This is our island and we will sign it off to nobody. They can occupy our lands against our will like the many other invadors did, but don't hope that such arrangement can bring peace because Cypriot people can not stand slavery. (most of us at least, there are always some Bananiots)

[BirKibrisli]

Well,dear Bananiot,we agree on one thing,at least...That Christofias has to make a move,and he has to make it soon...It really matters little what the move is,as long as he shows willingness to find a solution. Turkey and Talat has dined on Tpapa's "NO" for a long time... It is time to put the pressure on Turkey to show her true colours. As you say, it will all depend on what Erdogan thinks he can get away with. If he has given up the Islamic Republic dream,and truly wants to join the EU,he will come to the party...If not Cyprus problem will remain unsolved. My problem is I believe it is also in British and American interests to keep the island divided. That is a big obstacle and I have no idea how we will overcome it...The Turkish side will never agree on going back to the 1960 constitution anyway...If Christofias is clever he will pull that rabbit out of the hat first...Then settle for the best BBF option he can negotiate...Or sit back and watch Partition become a permanent reality...

[repulsewarrior]

defining bizonal in its geographic context will move things forward if it can describe a state which is not merely divided physically in two. enclaves being an important part of the history, is worthwhile looking at toward a solution. it will have no negative context if both Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots possess this type of territory, where individuals as persons can have control over these communities as a majority. it guarantees free movement for all citizens while it leaves both Greek and Turkish designs impotent in a military sense.

[humanist]

Michalis

I have personal story sad though but gives hope . On our way back from a trip to Apostolos Andreas we met a young 12 y o kurdish boy working in the field in a farm feeding the animals and wanted to go to Rizokarapso where his family and friends were living. I stopped the car to take the boy as there was no other way for him to go home . So we took the boy in our vehicle. We found out that not only he spoke Greek but also Turkish. He could understand almost everything we were talking about. When I was at his age I could only speak Greek and not even fluently. We realised afterwards that he came after the 1974 invasion and was living with his parents in rizokarapso among with his other GC freiends. He was so intelligent and guided us around with lots of information in Greek language. So hospitable young boy , a gentleman but also a mini Settler.........His name was Mustafa and it reflects the human dimension. In case of a settlement such a settler would be an asset in a united Cyprus.

Thanks for sharing Michalis. Next time am in Cyprus visiting Apostolos Andreas, I am stoping at Rizokarpaso to have a chat to the locals. I shall'nt allow the overly evident Turkification and flag hanging stop me.

It is also a pitty we cannot pack up those pro Turkey T's and send them to Turkey in exchange for the Kurdish boy. Anyway perhaps in the long term this multiculturalism is a good thing.