Cyprus-Forum.com

[pantheman]

"Defenseless Person is a Dependent Person on others Goodwill"

Kiks, grand statement, meaning what exactly.

I understand what its says, I am not understanding what you are saying though

[Oracle]

"Defenseless Person is a Dependent Person on others Goodwill"

Good maxim.

Against Turkey, Cyprus was effectively defenseless ... and Turkey's Goodwill has left us where we are today.

Let's not test her Goodwill again ...

Of course we are not so defenseless now, and maybe indeed the shoe is on the other (EU-sized) foot ....

I hope we lead by example, and show Goodwill to Turkey, as we negotiate our way out of this mess ....

[BirKibrisli]

By demilitarising are you also referring to the UK Bases?? US airfields in the north and so on. Or are we just talking silly buggers again.

Turkey should just leave us the hell alone, we are a sovereign nation we don't F***ing need her approval. If we want to have an army thats upto us. With or with out troops if Turkey wants to invade again she will end of.

So, lets just get our brains in gear before we start spewing the same crap that some others here do.

Pantheman,we cannot talk about true independence and sovereignty if there is one inch of our country controlled by a foreign power. The British bases will have to go too...The problem is who is going to tell them???

[Bill]

the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri & Dhekelia have done a lot of good for the Cypriot economy.Forcing the British to close them down & cede the land will do more harm than good.

Aidan.

Sorry Aida ~ not really the correct answer ~ in Cypriots eyes anyway.

You really have to come to terms with your ideas on the British colony of Cyprus and it's commonwealth connections

Bill ~~~ out Cath licing again this weekend

[pantheman]

the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri & Dhekelia have done a lot of good for the Cypriot economy.Forcing the British to close them down & cede the land will do more harm than good.

Aidan.

Sorry Aida ~ not really the correct answer ~ in Cypriots eyes anyway.

You really have to come to terms with your ideas on the British colony of Cyprus and it's commonwealth connections

Bill ~~~ out Cath licing again this weekend

Bill, does your missus know you are always licing Cath ?

[Kikapu]

"Defenseless Person is a Dependent Person on others Goodwill"

Kiks, grand statement, meaning what exactly.

I understand what its says, I am not understanding what you are saying though

What I'm saying pantheman is, if one voluntarily gives up their arms that was meant to be used for protecting themselves and their country from any adversaries, then they put themselves at the mercy of their adversaries as to not to harm them and their land. I'm not just talking about adversaries coming from Turkey, Greece or the UK, but ones safety and protection in general. Lets face it, we could not even count on our "Protectors", Turkey, Greece and the UK to save us from ourselves when we needed them, because they were too busy helping themselves with our land, let alone save us and our land from others.

[CopperLine]

I think DT. is right. Demilitarise the whole island.

It is a fundamental mistake to believe that Cyprus, whether united or partitioned, would ever have the economic or financial wherewithall to establish and maintain its own military force which would have even a deterrent effect.

Look at (a) the military budget of Cyprus (RoC on its own, or RoC plus TRNC) and then look at the military budget of Turkey, Greece, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt i.e, Cyprus' immediate neighbours. See the authoritative : http://first.sipri.org/non_first/milex.php

Cyprus 2005 = 1.4% of GDP 2006 = US$239m

Turkey 2005 = 2.8% of GDP 2006 = US$11291m

Greece 2005 = 4.1% of GDP 2006 = US$9642m

Lebanon 2005 = 4.5% of GDP 2006 = US$899m

Syria 2005 = 5.1% of GDP 2006 = US$5526m

Israel 2005 = 9.7% of GDP 2006 = US$11373m

Egypt 2005 = 2.8% of GDP 2006 = US$2710m


Let's put the above in proportion : Turkey spends about the same in 1 week what Cyprus spends in 1 year on the military.

Then consider that (b) of these only Turkey and possibly (but I don't really think so) Greece can be said to have any 'territorial ambitions'.

On the assumption that Cyprus does not have territorial ambitions against any of these countries - I've never heard anyone suggest this - then the need for a military to face an external military threat is either simply non-existent or, at most, simply impossible to maintain (viz. Turkey). The active use of the military of course assumes that there is the political will to do so, and the record of the last thirty four years is that RoC has not had the political will nor the military capacity to militarily eject Turkey from Cyprus.

Of these neighbours all have maritime claims which do or might conflict with Cyprus claims (again whether of a united or partitioned Cyprus). Therefore if any armed service is needed, then there may be a case for maritime - not military - forces.

The blunt reality is that Cyprus was, is and will remain a military minnow. The only practical target of a Cyprus military is ... Cypriots.

Let's just demilitarise. The immediate effect of that is to pull the rug from under the feet of the Turkish military's justification for continued presence on the island. Demilitarisation is a win for Turkish Cypriots, foir Greek Cypriots, for all islanders, and for peace.

[Oracle]

CopperLine ...

Cyprus is no longer a single military entity. It is part of a greater whole.

Your data as presented, are not comprehensive, merely partial, and hence invalid, for consideration towards your hypothesis.

Cyprus need only have enough to act as a deterrent towards Turkey initiating a launch.

[Murataga]

I think DT. is right. Demilitarise the whole island.

It is a fundamental mistake to believe that Cyprus, whether united or partitioned, would ever have the economic or financial wherewithall to establish and maintain its own military force which would have even a deterrent effect.

Look at (a) the military budget of Cyprus (RoC on its own, or RoC plus TRNC) and then look at the military budget of Turkey, Greece, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt i.e, Cyprus' immediate neighbours. See the authoritative : http://first.sipri.org/non_first/milex.php

Cyprus 2005 = 1.4% of GDP 2006 = US$239m

Turkey 2005 = 2.8% of GDP 2006 = US$11291m

Greece 2005 = 4.1% of GDP 2006 = US$9642m

Lebanon 2005 = 4.5% of GDP 2006 = US$899m

Syria 2005 = 5.1% of GDP 2006 = US$5526m

Israel 2005 = 9.7% of GDP 2006 = US$11373m

Egypt 2005 = 2.8% of GDP 2006 = US$2710m


Let's put the above in proportion : Turkey spends about the same in 1 week what Cyprus spends in 1 year on the military.

Then consider that (b) of these only Turkey and possibly (but I don't really think so) Greece can be said to have any 'territorial ambitions'.

On the assumption that Cyprus does not have territorial ambitions against any of these countries - I've never heard anyone suggest this - then the need for a military to face an external military threat is either simply non-existent or, at most, simply impossible to maintain (viz. Turkey). The active use of the military of course assumes that there is the political will to do so, and the record of the last thirty four years is that RoC has not had the political will nor the military capacity to militarily eject Turkey from Cyprus.

Of these neighbours all have maritime claims which do or might conflict with Cyprus claims (again whether of a united or partitioned Cyprus). Therefore if any armed service is needed, then there may be a case for maritime - not military - forces.

The blunt reality is that Cyprus was, is and will remain a military minnow. The only practical target of a Cyprus military is ... Cypriots.

Let's just demilitarise. The immediate effect of that is to pull the rug from under the feet of the Turkish military's justification for continued presence on the island. Demilitarisation is a win for Turkish Cypriots, foir Greek Cypriots, for all islanders, and for peace.

Good analysis however based on questionable assumptions. Here is why:

1) You said:

On the assumption that Cyprus does not have territorial ambitions against any of these countries

You assume that Cypriots themselves alone cannot launch an offensive against mainlands with their army and don`t have the ambitions to do so. This is true. However, no one expects THEM to do this. It is the two mainlands that might and use the island as a bouncing board to launch an offensive against one another. Surely, you appreciate where the GC allegiance stands in any scale of Greek-Turkish conflcit that has happened, is happenining and will happen. In other words, no one is concerned about what a "cyprus army" might do but many are worried about what "cyprus" might harbor and be used as a means to achieve in the event of a large scale conflict. Yet, this part I am not interested so much because it is a matter between Turkey and Greece mostly. However, I have absolutely no problem that our interets as TCs and Turkey`s interests coincide in Cyprus: (1) to exist and live in safety as TURKISH CYPRIOTS; (2) prevent ENOSIS (3) prevent the complete Hellenization of the island.

2) Your assumption is based on:

if the island is demilitarized is a win for Turkish Cypriots, for Greek Cypriots, for all islanders, and for peace

.

Copperline, the island was demilitarized after the agreements in 59 (excluding the minimal amount of troops by Greece and Turkey allowed by the agreements). The GCs have used their advantage of being the community with greater population and tried to terminate the TC community in the early 60s in such an environment. They have formed an army (called it the "national" guard, which to this day continues to be used as a means terrorize the TC community), almost immediately, against the provisions of the international agreements and launched numerous offensives against the TC community which they outnumbered almost 1 to 4. Additionally, they have invited the Greek army by the thousands (well-documented in U.N. sources) to this island to help them in their efforts. And I can not emphasize this enough: all of this happened before 1974! So: no, the one time that island was demilitarized was NOT a win for us as the TCs, it was our almost complete devastation. Demilitarising both communities MIGHT (still would require a list of strict and enforceable precautions) be logical if both communities were of equal size; it is NOT when one is more populated than the other and has a terrible history of launching deadly offensives with means to achieving illegal political agenda that the other refuses to accept.

[DT.]

murataga articles 129-132 of the constitution setup the national guard from 1960 with 2000 men. 60%gc 40%tc

so cyprus was not demilitarised.