Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint said:

"The 1960 constitution didnt work back then what makes you think it will work today? and wasnt it the GCs who claim it was forced upon them?"

That is why we are talking about changing it. The sate remains the same, the constitution changes. In Turkey when they have constitutional amendments they do not dissolve the state every time. Why do it in Cyprus?

Because they are not in the process of accomadating 2 states under a Federal Union to which both sides are commited, the "RoC" to TCs is what the TRNC is to GCs why not scrap both and start a fresh with stafeguards that will not allow one community to dominate the other or sweep them under the carpet, why are you so scared?

[Kikapu]

The 1960 constitution didnt work back then what makes you think it will work today? ?

Totally agree with you VP on this one.

What I don't understand is, why do you want to go back to the same conditions as it was in the 1960 Constitution with your type of BBF, which in actuality, it is BBC...Confederacy. So what you want to do, is to take all the provisions that did not work in the 1960 Constitution (50-50 power share, veto power, 70%-30% government jobs, guarantor powers and so on) and add another layer of problems by claiming the North as pure TC land and then only allow some GC's to come back to their own properties, but not back to their "country" as they have known before, since they will have to come under TC laws, all in the name of a peaceful settlement with a "Virgin Birth" new states. Last timer I looked, Christofias had different ideas than yours.

This is what he said about a settlement for Cyprus.

"We are committed to a bizonal, bicommunal federation, based on UN resolutions, international law, European law and high-level agreements between the two communities,"

Christofias said the 2004 UN plan was now off the table and the two sides must discuss all aspects of the division.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/25/ ... cyprus.php

Somehow I do not think Christofias shares your version of a "peace settlement". I believe he is talking about a
True Federation with True Democracy, which means also, that he too agrees with you, that the 1960 Constitution is not worth going back to or enter into another one under a different name, a BBF (BBC) and "Virgin Birth" states.

[Kifeas]

The Annan Plan had two very important elements for the GCs...
Turkish troops would be largely withdrawn,plus all but 46,000 settlers would return to Turkey...Surely Christofias doesn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Turkish troop withdrawal -even a complete one, is meaningless if at the same time the so-called unilateral intervention "rights" are not abolished, as it is only a matter of an hour before Turkey lands as many troops as it wishes in Cyprus -more so in view of a completely dismantled National Guard in a demilitarized island! It is only a matter of Turkey finding /orchestrating a pre-text, to do so! The GC community cannot possibly live under a constant and eternal blackmailing environment, both by Turkey and the TC community! The TC community will have no incentive to co-operate, more so when it will be controlled to a large extent by the remaining settlers in Cyprus.

The 46,000 settlers were only adults! If one adds to each family, 3-4 children on the average, the number easily becomes 100,000 people. In a few years, when children would gain voting rights as well, they would have constituted 40% of the TC community's electorate! On this number, one has to add up an additional 5% on the size of the TC "community" (including the remaining settlers,) i.e. another 10-15,000 people of Turkish origin that would have been permitted to stay, and in 5 years would also have gain citizenship! The number is large, to the extent that we no longer may talk about a will of a TC community! Turkey could in practice influence these -to be naturalized- settlers, who can easily join forces with another 20-30% from the TC community itself that have strong pro-Turkish nationalist sentiments (UBP etc,) so that the entire TC "community" is a consolidated permanet captive of Turkey's political aims visa vie Cyprus. The end result, in a political equality partnership with this type of TC "community," will look and taste for the GCs more like a one way partnership with Turkey itself, in ruling the whole of Cyprus through the central government! Cyprus will no longer be regarded as a politically independed country, but only a proxy to Turkey's international political (and not only) choices! The whole of Cyprus, through the central (federal) government, will more or less acquire the status that the “TRNC” currently has in the north, i.e. a subservient entity to Turkey’s political and geo-strategic aims and ambitions, and no matter whether it is or will be an EU member state or not! We may no longer talk about an independed and sovereign country, in any sense!

Had Turkey been a normal modern country, characterized by its sound political, democratic and social culture; and a country that respects international legality, human and civil rights; perhaps our concerns may have been somewhat lessened, even though it would still have remained to be a matter of principle! Unfortunately, not even this aspect can be satisfied, since Turkey is not able to safeguard its own people’s civil, cultural and human rights, set aside to respect or safeguard those of another country and another people! I say this not becasue I want to discredit Turkey and its people, but because it is a fact of life

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint wrote:

"Because they are not in the process of accomadating 2 states under a Federal Union to which both sides are commited, the "RoC" to TCs is what the TRNC is to GCs why not scrap both and start a fresh with stafeguards that will not allow one community to dominate the other or sweep them under the carpet, why are you so scared?"

I thought we were talking of a BIREGIONAL federation, not a two state solution. The high level agreement between Makarios and Kyprianou and Denktash always referred to a BIREGIONAL solution, and they rejected SEPARATE SELF DETERMINATION.

The fear is that if we dissolve the RoC and one of the two regions decides to throw a spanner in the works there will be a dispute about who represents the whole island. The end result will be double union and dissolution of Cyprus as a nation state regardless of whether it is federal or unitary etc. Without the RoC GCs have no other survival than dependence on Greece. If you cannot see this then you need to sit down and think about it.

And if we are talking about two states forming the new entity why then insist on Turkey having guarantee rights and unilateral intervention powers on both states of the new union? See Kifea's post above to understand the suspicions of GCs.

[DT.]

Viewpoint wrote:

"Because they are not in the process of accomadating 2 states under a Federal Union to which both sides are commited, the "RoC" to TCs is what the TRNC is to GCs why not scrap both and start a fresh with stafeguards that will not allow one community to dominate the other or sweep them under the carpet, why are you so scared?"

I thought we were talking of a BIREGIONAL federation, not a two state solution. The high level agreement between Makarios and Kyprianou and Denktash always referred to a BIREGIONAL solution, and they rejected SEPARATE SELF DETERMINATION.

The fear is that if we dissolve the RoC and one of the two regions decides to throw a spanner in the works there will be a dispute about who represents the whole island. The end result will be double union and dissolution of Cyprus as a nation state regardless of whether it is federal or unitary etc. Without the RoC GCs have no other survival than dependence on Greece. If you cannot see this then you need to sit down and think about it.

And if we are talking about two states forming the new entity why then insist on Turkey having guarantee rights and unilateral intervention powers on both states of the new union? See Kifea's post above to understand the suspicions of GCs.

actually the only signed agreement which states bi-zonality is July agreement as far as i know.

Tassos was the first to add his signature to the bi-zonal arrangement.

[BirKibrisli]

The Annan Plan had two very important elements for the GCs...
Turkish troops would be largely withdrawn,plus all but 46,000 settlers would return to Turkey...Surely Christofias doesn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Turkish troop withdrawal -even a complete one, is meaningless if at the same time the so-called unilateral intervention "rights" are not abolished, as it is only a matter of an hour before Turkey lands as many troops as it wishes in Cyprus -more so in view of a completely dismantled National Guard in a demilitarized island! It is only a matter of Turkey finding /orchestrating a pre-text, to do so! The GC community cannot possibly live under a constant and eternal blackmailing environment, both by Turkey and the TC community! The TC community will have no incentive to co-operate, more so when it will be controlled to a large extent by the remaining settlers in Cyprus.

The 46,000 settlers were only adults! If one adds to each family, 3-4 children on the average, the number easily becomes 100,000 people. In a few years, when children would gain voting rights as well, they would have constituted 40% of the TC community's electorate! On this number, one has to add up an additional 5% on the size of the TC "community" (including the remaining settlers,) i.e. another 10-15,000 people of Turkish origin that would have been permitted to stay, and in 5 years would also have gain citizenship! The number is large, to the extent that we no longer may talk about a will of a TC community! Turkey could in practice influence these -to be naturalized- settlers, who can easily join forces with another 20-30% from the TC community itself that have strong pro-Turkish nationalist sentiments (UBP etc,) so that the entire TC "community" is a consolidated permanet captive of Turkey's political aims visa vie Cyprus. The end result, in a political equality partnership with this type of TC "community," will look and taste for the GCs more like a one way partnership with Turkey itself, in ruling the whole of Cyprus through the central government! Cyprus will no longer be regarded as a politically independed country, but only a proxy to Turkey's international political (and not only) choices! The whole of Cyprus, through the central (federal) government, will more or less acquire the status that the “TRNC” currently has in the north, i.e. a subservient entity to Turkey’s political and geo-strategic aims and ambitions, and no matter whether it is or will be an EU member state or not! We may no longer talk about an independent and sovereign country, in any sense!

Had Turkey been a normal modern country, characterized by its sound political, democratic and social culture; and a country that respects international legality, human and civil rights; perhaps our concerns may have been somewhat lessened, even though it would still have remained to be a matter of principle! Unfortunately, not even this aspect can be satisfied, since Turkey is not able to safeguard its own people’s civil, cultural and human rights, set aside to respect or safeguard those of another country and another people! I say this not becasue I want to discredit Turkey and its people, but because it is a fact of life

Well,dear Kifeas,it all comes down to TRUST in the end...
GCs do not trust Turkey and point to the events of 1974 to justify their fears and suspicions...The TCs do not trust the GCs,and point to the events between 1963 and 74 to justify theirs...How on earth are we going to find a solution which will leave most Cypriots with a sense of justice and security???? No one is prepared to give an inch...No one is trying to foster trust and understanding...Everyone is in their bunkers busy with fortifications...How on earth are we going to get out of this hole we find ourselves????

[Kifeas]

Bir, the GC side has given up its “Enosis” ambition, the TC side has not yet given up its “Taxim” one! The GC side, even though it is the overwhelming majority of the people in this country and even though it has been living for thousands of years all around Cyprus, evenly spread, and even though the north has never been a predominately TC populated area; had already made the unprecedented in world wide affairs historical concession to the TC community, to accept a solution on the basis of a two-state federation! We feel we have made already enormous compromises, for the sake of peace and unity in this country! Just imagine Turkey making a similar concession to its Kurdish speaking population, by accepting a federation with 30% of its territory to be effectively controlled by the 20% Kurdish minority and accepting it as an equal partner with the Turkish people, for the rest of the country! You cannot imagine it, I know! Tell me one single compromise –set aside one of the same magnitude, that the TC community has ever done, since 1960! When we speak about the two sides “not being prepared to give an inch,” I suggest we better know what we are talking about! The GC side has given thousands of inches already!

As for the issue of unilateral intervention “rights,” I have to say this! The solution of the Cyprus problem, as the numerous UN resolutions on Cyprus do spell and as it is reiterated in all the high level agreements between the two sides, the last one being the “8th of July” one, to spell that it should be based on the establishment of an independed country with a single sovereignty and a single international personality that will continue to be a full member of the UN! To the best of my understanding, both Turkey and the TC leadership do accept the above parameter as the basis, since they claim they want a solution within the UN framework!

The guiding parameters of what constitutes “the UN framework,” are those defined by the UN Charter (the ultimate of international law) and the UN resolutions! The UN Charter (to whom Turkey is a co-signatory as well as Cyprus) states clearly as its number one principle that: the UN “is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.” (article 2, paragraph 1.) Paragraph 4 of the same article (2) says the following: “All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”

It is clear from the above two articles that the provision in “treaty of guarantee” allowing for unilateral intervention rights, lies outside the provisions of the UN Charter because it erodes and violates the principle of sovereign equality among all its member states, and therefore it is invalidated by default. This is more evident if one reads article 103 of the Charter, which says that: “In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail.”

To this end, the 1974 Turkish invasion in Cyprus lies outside the parameters of the UN Charter, and therefore it is illegal. The Turkish side disputes the above RoC claim, which also coincides with the opinion of all the most notable international law experts I have personally come across, and it further maintains the view and aim that such a “treaty of guarantee” “allowing” Turkey to enjoy unilateral intervention “rights” against Cyprus, should be reiterated and preserved in the new solution agreements! RoC has invited Turkey to proceed together to the ICJ of The Hague and obtain a binding opinion on this issue! Turkey has refused to follow this procedure!

We GCs are ready to accept that such a unilateral intervention "treaty of guarantee” is valid and does not come in conflict with the UN Charter, i.e. the UN framework, and we further accept that it should be maintained in the new solution agreement, should Turkey accepts a hearing of both sides at the ICJ and accepts to abide by the court’s findings! If the ICJ says that there is no conflict with the UN Charter, fine with us! Until this happens, do not expect or ask us to accept the continuation of a treaty’s provision that we firmly believe to be lying outside the UN and the International law framework, just so that we satisfy turkey’s megalomaniac illusions of grandeur and its ambitions to keep Cyprus in perpetuity under its suzerainty!

As for the issue of trust between the two communities and all the possible security concerns that the TC side may have, we are willing to examine any proposal and arrangement to address them, as long as it comes within the UN framework, is in accordance with the Charter and the UN resolutions, and does not potentially endanger Cyprus political independence and territorial integrity!

[Viewpoint]

The Annan Plan had two very important elements for the GCs...
Turkish troops would be largely withdrawn,plus all but 46,000 settlers would return to Turkey...Surely Christofias doesn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Turkish troop withdrawal -even a complete one, is meaningless if at the same time the so-called unilateral intervention "rights" are not abolished, as it is only a matter of an hour before Turkey lands as many troops as it wishes in Cyprus -more so in view of a completely dismantled National Guard in a demilitarized island! It is only a matter of Turkey finding /orchestrating a pre-text, to do so! The GC community cannot possibly live under a constant and eternal blackmailing environment, both by Turkey and the TC community! The TC community will have no incentive to co-operate, more so when it will be controlled to a large extent by the remaining settlers in Cyprus.

The 46,000 settlers were only adults! If one adds to each family, 3-4 children on the average, the number easily becomes 100,000 people. In a few years, when children would gain voting rights as well, they would have constituted 40% of the TC community's electorate! On this number, one has to add up an additional 5% on the size of the TC "community" (including the remaining settlers,) i.e. another 10-15,000 people of Turkish origin that would have been permitted to stay, and in 5 years would also have gain citizenship! The number is large, to the extent that we no longer may talk about a will of a TC community! Turkey could in practice influence these -to be naturalized- settlers, who can easily join forces with another 20-30% from the TC community itself that have strong pro-Turkish nationalist sentiments (UBP etc,) so that the entire TC "community" is a consolidated permanet captive of Turkey's political aims visa vie Cyprus. The end result, in a political equality partnership with this type of TC "community," will look and taste for the GCs more like a one way partnership with Turkey itself, in ruling the whole of Cyprus through the central government! Cyprus will no longer be regarded as a politically independed country, but only a proxy to Turkey's international political (and not only) choices! The whole of Cyprus, through the central (federal) government, will more or less acquire the status that the “TRNC” currently has in the north, i.e. a subservient entity to Turkey’s political and geo-strategic aims and ambitions, and no matter whether it is or will be an EU member state or not! We may no longer talk about an independent and sovereign country, in any sense!

Had Turkey been a normal modern country, characterized by its sound political, democratic and social culture; and a country that respects international legality, human and civil rights; perhaps our concerns may have been somewhat lessened, even though it would still have remained to be a matter of principle! Unfortunately, not even this aspect can be satisfied, since Turkey is not able to safeguard its own people’s civil, cultural and human rights, set aside to respect or safeguard those of another country and another people! I say this not becasue I want to discredit Turkey and its people, but because it is a fact of life

Well,dear Kifeas,it all comes down to TRUST in the end...
GCs do not trust Turkey and point to the events of 1974 to justify their fears and suspicions...The TCs do not trust the GCs,and point to the events between 1963 and 74 to justify theirs...How on earth are we going to find a solution which will leave most Cypriots with a sense of justice and security???? No one is prepared to give an inch...No one is trying to foster trust and understanding...Everyone is in their bunkers busy with fortifications...How on earth are we going to get out of this hole we find ourselves????

Great post Bir.

[bill cobbett]

The Annan Plan had two very important elements for the GCs...
Turkish troops would be largely withdrawn,plus all but 46,000 settlers would return to Turkey...Surely Christofias doesn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater....

Turkish troop withdrawal -even a complete one, is meaningless if at the same time the so-called unilateral intervention "rights" are not abolished, as it is only a matter of an hour before Turkey lands as many troops as it wishes in Cyprus -more so in view of a completely dismantled National Guard in a demilitarized island! It is only a matter of Turkey finding /orchestrating a pre-text, to do so! The GC community cannot possibly live under a constant and eternal blackmailing environment, both by Turkey and the TC community! The TC community will have no incentive to co-operate, more so when it will be controlled to a large extent by the remaining settlers in Cyprus.

The 46,000 settlers were only adults! If one adds to each family, 3-4 children on the average, the number easily becomes 100,000 people. In a few years, when children would gain voting rights as well, they would have constituted 40% of the TC community's electorate! On this number, one has to add up an additional 5% on the size of the TC "community" (including the remaining settlers,) i.e. another 10-15,000 people of Turkish origin that would have been permitted to stay, and in 5 years would also have gain citizenship! The number is large, to the extent that we no longer may talk about a will of a TC community! Turkey could in practice influence these -to be naturalized- settlers, who can easily join forces with another 20-30% from the TC community itself that have strong pro-Turkish nationalist sentiments (UBP etc,) so that the entire TC "community" is a consolidated permanet captive of Turkey's political aims visa vie Cyprus. The end result, in a political equality partnership with this type of TC "community," will look and taste for the GCs more like a one way partnership with Turkey itself, in ruling the whole of Cyprus through the central government! Cyprus will no longer be regarded as a politically independed country, but only a proxy to Turkey's international political (and not only) choices! The whole of Cyprus, through the central (federal) government, will more or less acquire the status that the “TRNC” currently has in the north, i.e. a subservient entity to Turkey’s political and geo-strategic aims and ambitions, and no matter whether it is or will be an EU member state or not! We may no longer talk about an independent and sovereign country, in any sense!

Had Turkey been a normal modern country, characterized by its sound political, democratic and social culture; and a country that respects international legality, human and civil rights; perhaps our concerns may have been somewhat lessened, even though it would still have remained to be a matter of principle! Unfortunately, not even this aspect can be satisfied, since Turkey is not able to safeguard its own people’s civil, cultural and human rights, set aside to respect or safeguard those of another country and another people! I say this not becasue I want to discredit Turkey and its people, but because it is a fact of life

Well,dear Kifeas,it all comes down to TRUST in the end...
GCs do not trust Turkey and point to the events of 1974 to justify their fears and suspicions...The TCs do not trust the GCs,and point to the events between 1963 and 74 to justify theirs...How on earth are we going to find a solution which will leave most Cypriots with a sense of justice and security???? No one is prepared to give an inch...No one is trying to foster trust and understanding...Everyone is in their bunkers busy with fortifications...How on earth are we going to get out of this hole we find ourselves????

Gosh and what a hole it is and one we're going to be in for at least the next couple of generations if we think it's something that will be "solved" with one grand treaty, agreement or solution. Rather I feel that step by step but substantive exchanges ( for want of a better phrase ) are the way forward. I don't mean the "confidence building measures" nonsense of a while ago.

I am sure others will think of other items that could form a real and as I say, substantive first step where both communities win. WIN/WIN got it? (that would be a first for Cyprus).

For instance, one of our communities wants an end to embargos and direct flights, the other community may want a return of Varosi. Neither of these, imho, will cost the other community much if anything and both would be of benefit to the whole C. economy.

These and other relatively small steps make the progress towards a grand solution a little easier. Don't get me wrong I know that at some time we will have to confront the more difficult problems
but we'll be tackling these from a much more confident base.

Softly, softly killy monkey and remember "win/win".

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, the GC side has given up its “Enosis” ambition, the TC side has not yet given up its “Taxim” one! The GC side, even though it is the overwhelming majority of the people in this country and even though it has been living for thousands of years all around Cyprus, evenly spread, and even though the north has never been a predominately TC populated area; had already made the unprecedented in world wide affairs historical concession to the TC community, to accept a solution on the basis of a two-state federation! We feel we have made already enormous compromises, for the sake of peace and unity in this country! Just imagine Turkey making a similar concession to its Kurdish speaking population, by accepting a federation with 30% of its territory to be effectively controlled by the 20% Kurdish minority and accepting it as an equal partner with the Turkish people, for the rest of the country! You cannot imagine it, I know! Tell me one single compromise –set aside one of the same magnitude, that the TC community has ever done, since 1960! When we speak about the two sides “not being prepared to give an inch,” I suggest we better know what we are talking about! The GC side has given thousands of inches already!

As for the issue of unilateral intervention “rights,” I have to say this! The solution of the Cyprus problem, as the numerous UN resolutions on Cyprus do spell and as it is reiterated in all the high level agreements between the two sides, the last one being the “8th of July” one, to spell that it should be based on the establishment of an independed country with a single sovereignty and a single international personality that will continue to be a full member of the UN! To the best of my understanding, both Turkey and the TC leadership do accept the above parameter as the basis, since they claim they want a solution within the UN framework!

The guiding parameters of what constitutes “the UN framework,” are those defined by the UN Charter (the ultimate of international law) and the UN resolutions! The UN Charter (to whom Turkey is a co-signatory as well as Cyprus) states clearly as its number one principle that: the UN “is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.” (article 2, paragraph 1.) Paragraph 4 of the same article (2) says the following: “All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”

It is clear from the above two articles that the provision in “treaty of guarantee” allowing for unilateral intervention rights, lies outside the provisions of the UN Charter because it erodes and violates the principle of sovereign equality among all its member states, and therefore it is invalidated by default. This is more evident if one reads article 103 of the Charter, which says that: “In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail.”

To this end, the 1974 Turkish invasion in Cyprus lies outside the parameters of the UN Charter, and therefore it is illegal. The Turkish side disputes the above RoC claim, which also coincides with the opinion of all the most notable international law experts I have personally come across, and it further maintains the view and aim that such a “treaty of guarantee” “allowing” Turkey to enjoy unilateral intervention “rights” against Cyprus, should be reiterated and preserved in the new solution agreements! RoC has invited Turkey to proceed together to the ICJ of The Hague and obtain a binding opinion on this issue! Turkey has refused to follow this procedure!

We GCs are ready to accept that such a unilateral intervention "treaty of guarantee” is valid and does not come in conflict with the UN Charter, i.e. the UN framework, and we further accept that it should be maintained in the new solution agreement, should Turkey accepts a hearing of both sides at the ICJ and accepts to abide by the court’s findings! If the ICJ says that there is no conflict with the UN Charter, fine with us! Until this happens, do not expect or ask us to accept the continuation of a treaty’s provision that we firmly believe to be lying outside the UN and the International law framework, just so that we satisfy turkey’s megalomaniac illusions of grandeur and its ambitions to keep Cyprus in perpetuity under its suzerainty!

As for the issue of trust between the two communities and all the possible security concerns that the TC side may have, we are willing to examine any proposal and arrangement to address them, as long as it comes within the UN framework, is in accordance with the Charter and the UN resolutions, and does not potentially endanger Cyprus political independence and territorial integrity!

But,dear Kifeas,the problems is the majority TCs do not believe when you say the GCs have given up on Enosis. That is why the problem is one of TRUST... You believe the GCs have made significant concessions already,and what you say makes perfect sense...But not to most of the TCs...They believe they are now safe and secure behind their own lines. They look at the present situation and say "why should we give up our safe heaven???" "The whole thing is the fault of the GCs anyway,so serves them right..." This is what you fail to see. The TCs reasoning makes prefect sense as well,to them..."We were kicked out of government,had to suffer the indignity of the 63-74 years,why should we now settle for anything less than our own state,forever protected by our 'mother'"...This is the mindset you are facing...And without any concrete measures to foster trust and understanding,this situation will not change...It has nothing to do with right or wrong,justice or unfairness...Everything to do with an inflexible mindset brought about by selective historical events...I agree with Bill Cobbett above...We need to start giving and taking,small compromises which will give us the opportunity to cooperate and contact each other as human beings...The rest will follow...Both sides have to look at their "red lines",get another colour paint and draw them again...