Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

I know you think you are a bit of a film buff GCKiks but you need to come out of that imaginary world and visit the real one every now and again


Now you are here for a visit,Real world that is, I can tell you that the only land we have is in the buffer zone and is on the papers (kocan in Turkish) and we never went in for the exchange........Now back to Wendy...She is waiting for you

Life imitates Fiction all the time Zan. Where the hell have you been all this time to have missed that little bit of reality.??

I asked you if it was true that you have "donated" your family's land to the "TRNC" recently. Did you not write this on the forum recently, or did I get it wrong, so that is my main question. Of course the writing on the Deeds would be in Turkish, if they were owned by a TC, so I don't know why you needed to bring that up. So Zan, did you or did you not "donate" your family's land on the buffer zone to the "TRNC".??

It's really like watching paint dry talking to you...... I said that if there was partition then I would gladly give up my land for that. Donate for a solution which will mean that it will end up in GC hands and not the TRNC......If it is in the TRNC then why would I give it up???

Fair enough Zan. I'll take your word for it.

[halil]

President Mehmet Ali Talat has expressed the hope that the negotiations on solving the Cyprus issue will begin at the end of April. Mr Talat was speaking at a press conference at the end of the 11th OIC Summit in the Senegalese capital Dakar.

At the press conference, the President reiterated that he had an impression that the UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon is ready to take initiative on the Cyprus issue.

Expressing his satisfaction over the decisions taken by the Organization of the Islamic Conference, Mr Talat said he asked for the full membership of the TRNC to the OIC.

He also added that the application to the Islamic Solidarity Sports Federation was accepted.

Stating that the summit was quite useful, Mr Talat said he had an opportunity to stress the injustice of the isolations on the Turkish Cypriot People in every bilateral discussion he had.

In his address to the summit yesterday, the President Talat called on the Organization of the Islamic Conference to upgrade the current observer status of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to that of a full member.

Mr Talat also voiced the Turkish Cypriot People’s desire to open offices in OIC member countries with a view to enhancing relations with the OIC members particularly in the fields of trade, tourism, culture and higher education.

On the Cyprus issue, he said the Turkish Cypriot Side was committed to resume the full fledged negotiations in order to reach a lasting settlement on the basis of bizonality, the political equality of the two peoples and the equal status of the two constituent states, establishing a new partnership state in Cyprus.

He also called on the New Greek Cypriot leadership to resume negotiations without any further delay on the basis of the UN body of work and established UN parameters, in other words on the basis of the UN comprehensive settlement plan.

President Talat and his accompanying delegation will return to the Republic tonight.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu I have to start by thanking you for your positive change in attitude and acknowledging possible dangers TCs will face in the BBF you promote. I really appreciate your change and will try to respond in fashion it warrants.

Well, the "dangers" that I see that is a concern to you is, if we have a True Federation and anyone can live where ever they want, even if it means the whole 200,000 displaced GC's moving back to their homes, then the threat will be that you will not have a majority in the North, but more like a a 50-50 basis.

I also believe everyone should be able to travel and settle where ever they wish so this does not vere from what you are saying.

The reason why I put "dangers" in quotation marks was, because I was under the impression, that once we agree on a True Federal system under a "new country", that we are once again all Cypriots and did not matter where everyone lived. But I see that you still want to keep those ethnic lines very clear. The truth of the matter is, despite the GC's getting their properties back, they will not be moving to the North in great numbers. I would be very surprised if more than 50,00 would move to the North.

This for us is a real danger especially in the early stages as there is no trust between the communities but allowing everyone to move and settle freely should not restricted by there being 2 states one administered by TCs and the other by GCs, people will then be allowed the freedom to choose which state they would rather reside in. I think initally GCs may not want to reside in the north state but over time they will see the administartion will not be much different from the south and as trust increases they to will move north.

There are of course ways to reduce this problem, and that is, that if the TC's wants to remain absolute majority for almost for ever in a state in the north, then they will have to reduce the amount of land that they are holding now to be one of the 2 states. TC's can arrange to have "their" state in an area which was mostly TC's before 1974 and expand from there to the amount of land that they think they have collectively with land in the south and in the north, and draw "their" state lines that way. The size may be close to what most believe to be around 20%, but in order to make sure the state is big enough to live and work, it should be negotiated to take a little bit more than 20%, specially if there are willing GC sellers of their land to the new "TC" state. This way, you will have the least number of GC's in "your" state, that will be a factor in electing officials. The bigger the land area, more the chance of more GC's being in it, who will also have the right to vote for any elected official.

Thank you for at least trying to address our concerns by restricting land apportioned to the north state but what difference will it make if we are free to live where we wish? The problem some people will face is accepting that the administration body in the state you choose will be of different etnic origin. Another problem would be the officals elected but on a small island like ours it can be done proportionally and regional or in groups with GCs and TCs.

I guess I want to believe that once we have a "new country", that we do not see ourselves as GC's and TC's, but Cypriots first. An island with a variety of what we can all bring together for a lasting future where the tourist find themselves in paradise with such rich cultures. It will be a win win for all Cypriots. After a long period of time, if we were able to achieve this cohesiveness between the ethnic groups, I believe, we can become another Switzerland, where they are Swiss first then their ethnicity, where there are no majority and minority, even though numerically speaking, one cannot change the fact, that minority and majority will always exist, but by no means be the cause to take away anyone's rights away. The Swiss have done it for over 900 years. I believe they have proven beyond any doubt that it can work. For Cyprus, we can follow in their foot steps. Better late than never

This ideology will take many years but is not impossible trust and cooperation is the key of which we have zero at the current time. We have to start somewhere and when we address the concerns of both sides a BBF solution with 2 equal states is he bestway forward where ther will be no doors left open for one community to dominate or push the other one to one side as was the problem in the past.

VP,

I must apologize again for not getting back to you earlier. I had a very bad case of Internet Service provider problems. It was on and off with the service, so could not do very much posting on the forum.

By the way, you have just reached your years allocation of apologies from me, 3 in total in the last 2 weeks. !!!

Thank you for your nice remarks. If you have ever read my plan for Cyprus from the past, you would have seen my fair side towards the TC's, so that they are represented and also are able to live in peace and prosperity.

I'll respond to your post as a "package" and not segmented to pieces. I was talking on the basis of a True Federation, but I believe you are still talking about the BBF which is a Confederation. This is the gab that the TC's and the GC's will need to narrow to find a solution. That was the reason as to why the GC's said no to the 2004 AP, because the whole plan was a "Federation" based on Swiss style of government and the "Virgin Birth" concept of two "new" states. If that is the concept you want to stick by, then I will have to say, that the GC's will not agree to give the TC's more than 20% of the North to form their own pure Turkish Cypriot state. I don't even think they will even agree to a "Virgin Birth" to form a pure TC and a GC states in a Confederation. That would mean getting rid off the RoC and everything that goes with it, so just to have a Northern state ruled by the TC's and share everything from the island with Turkey looking over their shoulders all the time. If that were to be the case and push came to shove, the GC's will tell the TC's to take the 20% and do what ever they wanted with it, then seal the border between the North and the EU member nation. I have personally lived in the States under a Federation System and a now live in Switzerland under a Confederation system, and quite honestly, as an individual, I have not notice much difference. The problem in Cyprus is, True Federation is possible attain where as, Confederation physically is not and also unacceptable to the majority of Cypriots, if done by force, as the case is right now. If they do not want it now, I can't see them wanting it later.

On the other hand, if we were to go the True Federation way, as far as I'm concerned, the "borders" on the present North and South can stay as they are. What does it mater. But with that, you will have more chance of more GC's moving back to their land, which if all did that, then you are going to have 50-50 TC's and GC's. I do not see this as a "danger" VP. All those living in the North, will still run their own state, the only difference is, you will also have GC's working with you in the state government, since they will also be elected from the areas that they live and represent. The more people living in the North, the north state will also benefits such as greater economy, taxes, service industry, imports exports and so on. The population will be on a equal par with those living in the South. You cannot build a great state, without people. What better way than doing it with those who are also from the island. Having said all this, and still maintain that the present lines can remain in a True Federation, you will find, that the most GC's will not be moving back, if ever, They will be coming and going to do business and work their land, but the majority will be TC's for many years to come, and if all goes well after a while, trust me, you will want people to move to your Northern State, because that creates growth and wealth.

Just to give you an example. If you take the USA with it's 300 Million population and Australia's 25 Million population, who's country's mass is almost equal in size, we all know which one of the two has the wealth and developed the land from East to West and North to South. I know what you are thinking, which is, "well, we already have a lot of people here from Turkey, so let them stay so that we can have this large population that you are talking about, and at the same time, more of a chance to be all "Turkish" state, even under a True Federation". Well, your logic would definitely will make sense, but in reality, it is not going to happen. Some will be able to stay, but the most will need to go back. If on the other hand the TC's would want to negotiate a 20% of Northern Cyprus for a complete break from the RoC, then you have solved your own problem as far as the settlers goes.

In the end VP, there can be a solution, which will require compromises from all the parties, but there will be lines drawn in the sand, that Cyprus being in the EU, there are certain things that the TC's will need to accept, no matter how hard it may be to swallow if they also want to be part of the EU. The EU will not make exceptions to have one of it's members to be undemocratic. If on the other hand the TC's want to partition and be their own "Effendi" as our friend Halil would say, then take the 20% and run. Even that may not be offered by the RoC.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu I have to start by thanking you for your positive change in attitude and acknowledging possible dangers TCs will face in the BBF you promote. I really appreciate your change and will try to respond in fashion it warrants.

Well, the "dangers" that I see that is a concern to you is, if we have a True Federation and anyone can live where ever they want, even if it means the whole 200,000 displaced GC's moving back to their homes, then the threat will be that you will not have a majority in the North, but more like a a 50-50 basis.

I also believe everyone should be able to travel and settle where ever they wish so this does not vere from what you are saying.

The reason why I put "dangers" in quotation marks was, because I was under the impression, that once we agree on a True Federal system under a "new country", that we are once again all Cypriots and did not matter where everyone lived. But I see that you still want to keep those ethnic lines very clear. The truth of the matter is, despite the GC's getting their properties back, they will not be moving to the North in great numbers. I would be very surprised if more than 50,00 would move to the North.

This for us is a real danger especially in the early stages as there is no trust between the communities but allowing everyone to move and settle freely should not restricted by there being 2 states one administered by TCs and the other by GCs, people will then be allowed the freedom to choose which state they would rather reside in. I think initally GCs may not want to reside in the north state but over time they will see the administartion will not be much different from the south and as trust increases they to will move north.

There are of course ways to reduce this problem, and that is, that if the TC's wants to remain absolute majority for almost for ever in a state in the north, then they will have to reduce the amount of land that they are holding now to be one of the 2 states. TC's can arrange to have "their" state in an area which was mostly TC's before 1974 and expand from there to the amount of land that they think they have collectively with land in the south and in the north, and draw "their" state lines that way. The size may be close to what most believe to be around 20%, but in order to make sure the state is big enough to live and work, it should be negotiated to take a little bit more than 20%, specially if there are willing GC sellers of their land to the new "TC" state. This way, you will have the least number of GC's in "your" state, that will be a factor in electing officials. The bigger the land area, more the chance of more GC's being in it, who will also have the right to vote for any elected official.

Thank you for at least trying to address our concerns by restricting land apportioned to the north state but what difference will it make if we are free to live where we wish? The problem some people will face is accepting that the administration body in the state you choose will be of different etnic origin. Another problem would be the officals elected but on a small island like ours it can be done proportionally and regional or in groups with GCs and TCs.

I guess I want to believe that once we have a "new country", that we do not see ourselves as GC's and TC's, but Cypriots first. An island with a variety of what we can all bring together for a lasting future where the tourist find themselves in paradise with such rich cultures. It will be a win win for all Cypriots. After a long period of time, if we were able to achieve this cohesiveness between the ethnic groups, I believe, we can become another Switzerland, where they are Swiss first then their ethnicity, where there are no majority and minority, even though numerically speaking, one cannot change the fact, that minority and majority will always exist, but by no means be the cause to take away anyone's rights away. The Swiss have done it for over 900 years. I believe they have proven beyond any doubt that it can work. For Cyprus, we can follow in their foot steps. Better late than never

This ideology will take many years but is not impossible trust and cooperation is the key of which we have zero at the current time. We have to start somewhere and when we address the concerns of both sides a BBF solution with 2 equal states is he bestway forward where ther will be no doors left open for one community to dominate or push the other one to one side as was the problem in the past.

VP,

I must apologize again for not getting back to you earlier. I had a very bad case of Internet Service provider problems. It was on and off with the service, so could not do very much posting on the forum.

By the way, you have just reached your years allocation of apologies from me, 3 in total in the last 2 weeks. !!!

Thank you for your nice remarks. If you have ever read my plan for Cyprus from the past, you would have seen my fair side towards the TC's, so that they are represented and also are able to live in peace and prosperity.

I'll respond to your post as a "package" and not segmented to pieces. I was talking on the basis of a True Federation, but I believe you are still talking about the BBF which is a Confederation. This is the gab that the TC's and the GC's will need to narrow to find a solution. That was the reason as to why the GC's said no to the 2004 AP, because the whole plan was a "Federation" based on Swiss style of government and the "Virgin Birth" concept of two "new" states. If that is the concept you want to stick by, then I will have to say, that the GC's will not agree to give the TC's more than 20% of the North to form their own pure Turkish Cypriot state. I don't even think they will even agree to a "Virgin Birth" to form a pure TC and a GC states in a Confederation. That would mean getting rid off the RoC and everything that goes with it, so just to have a Northern state ruled by the TC's and share everything from the island with Turkey looking over their shoulders all the time. If that were to be the case and push came to shove, the GC's will tell the TC's to take the 20% and do what ever they wanted with it, then seal the border between the North and the EU member nation. I have personally lived in the States under a Federation System and a now live in Switzerland under a Confederation system, and quite honestly, as an individual, I have not notice much difference. The problem in Cyprus is, True Federation is possible attain where as, Confederation physically is not and also unacceptable to the majority of Cypriots, if done by force, as the case is right now. If they do not want it now, I can't see them wanting it later.

On the other hand, if we were to go the True Federation way, as far as I'm concerned, the "borders" on the present North and South can stay as they are. What does it mater. But with that, you will have more chance of more GC's moving back to their land, which if all did that, then you are going to have 50-50 TC's and GC's. I do not see this as a "danger" VP. All those living in the North, will still run their own state, the only difference is, you will also have GC's working with you in the state government, since they will also be elected from the areas that they live and represent. The more people living in the North, the north state will also benefits such as greater economy, taxes, service industry, imports exports and so on. The population will be on a equal par with those living in the South. You cannot build a great state, without people. What better way than doing it with those who are also from the island. Having said all this, and still maintain that the present lines can remain in a True Federation, you will find, that the most GC's will not be moving back, if ever, They will be coming and going to do business and work their land, but the majority will be TC's for many years to come, and if all goes well after a while, trust me, you will want people to move to your Northern State, because that creates growth and wealth.

Just to give you an example. If you take the USA with it's 300 Million population and Australia's 25 Million population, who's country's mass is almost equal in size, we all know which one of the two has the wealth and developed the land from East to West and North to South. I know what you are thinking, which is, "well, we already have a lot of people here from Turkey, so let them stay so that we can have this large population that you are talking about, and at the same time, more of a chance to be all "Turkish" state, even under a True Federation". Well, your logic would definitely will make sense, but in reality, it is not going to happen. Some will be able to stay, but the most will need to go back. If on the other hand the TC's would want to negotiate a 20% of Northern Cyprus for a complete break from the RoC, then you have solved your own problem as far as the settlers goes.

In the end VP, there can be a solution, which will require compromises from all the parties, but there will be lines drawn in the sand, that Cyprus being in the EU, there are certain things that the TC's will need to accept, no matter how hard it may be to swallow if they also want to be part of the EU. The EU will not make exceptions to have one of it's members to be undemocratic. If on the other hand the TC's want to partition and be their own "Effendi" as our friend Halil would say, then take the 20% and run. Even that may not be offered by the RoC.

I have highlighted a few points I would like to raise what you do not see as a danger I and many other TCs do, just saying it is will not make it go away. With 50%+ stake in the north state and a near enough 90% stake in the south where will that leave us?

You see no differnce between a conferation or a federation then why not the confederation we are closer to if it provides us with the safeguards that will make us say YES?

The land mass and population example does not really hold water when you take Saudi Arabia or Dubai as the example natural resources also pplay a very big role in national wealth.

The GC approach smells of them using the numerical advantage to push us into a minority status corner which we will never accept, what has to be done is to show TCs that they will better off united than divided to date no one has been able to do this and even the EU element which was a positive influence back in 2004 has been lost.

[Kikapu]

VP

I have highlighted a few points I would like to raise what you do not see as a danger I and many other TCs do, just saying it is will not make it go away. With 50%+ stake in the north state and a near enough 90% stake in the south where will that leave us?

Lets understand what dangers it is that you are talking about. I do not think they are dangers of being killed or being treated as second class citizens or not being allowed opportunities for the TC's by the GC's if and when....if ever, the new Northern State in a True Federation were to be 50-50 TC's and GC's. Your main concern of "danger" is, that it will not have 100% only TC's in the State legislature and 100% TC representation of the Northern State in the Senate and Congress. But with your own admission VP, that you want anyone to settle anywhere they want, then how do you prevent anyone living in the Northern State from running for office.?? This is where the 2004 AP gave a huge advantage for the TC's in a Confederation government in the North, that anyone running for office must also speak, read and write Turkish, as well as "kneel down" and give their allegiance to Attaturk. This would have disenfranchised many citizens of Cyprus living in the Northern State from ever getting into office or even able to work as an employee in any government office. We still do have two official languages in Cyprus, don't we.??

Worse case scenario, the Northern State would be 50-50. Doesn't the TC's always make the argument that they want a 50-50 of everything.?? Here is the chance to put it to practice !!!. But of course that only applies to all of Cyprus and not just to any one state, would be the response from the TC's. I still maintain, that in a True Federation, the Northern State will not have that many GC's returning back from the 200,000 thousand that were force to leave in 1974. They will be land owners from a distance while living in the Southern State, just like most TC's will remain land owners in the South while living in the North, until they choose to sell them. Therefore VP, the TC's will have the overwhelming majority in the North, not by some Undemocratic and Racist rulings, but by default because of the division and bad memories of the past 34 years. In the meantime, the TC's will enjoy the area they live now, which I believe would be accepted by majority of the GC's, because the North will be one of two states in Cyprus which everyone is a equal citizen and are free to move about, and will not be considered to be a pure TC state under a Confederation and another "country" which the GC's would feel as foreigners in their own country.

You see no difference between a confederation or a federation then why not the confederation we are closer to if it provides us with the safeguards that will make us say YES?

On an individual level, there isn't a difference, under normal conditions. One works, lives, votes and pays taxes as any other place. But we are not under normal conditions, are we.?? You are asking to go from a Republic to a Confederation built on land that 80% belongs to the GC's, then make it into a pure TC state with it's laws and once this Confederate state is established, then there are no safeguards to prevent it from breaking away to become Independent, whether there are GC's living there or not. Just like the arguments the TC's use about Enosis dreams of the GC's in the 60's. Majority rules right.!! The GC's are not going to agree to giving the TC's any land to make it into a Confederate state. Had the TC's were the sole owners of such land for many generations, then yes, a Confederacy could have been formed under those conditions, but the way things are right now, no way, just as the same attempts failed in America that produced the Civil War.

The GC approach smells of them using the numerical advantage to push us into a minority status corner which we will never accept, what has to be done is to show TCs that they will better off united than divided to date no one has been able to do this and even the EU element which was a positive influence back in 2004 has been lost

The TC's are never going to escape the numerical differences with the GC's in the near future in the overall population of the country. That's why having s Northern state mostly being TC's, will not make the TC's a minority in that state. They will have control of most of the state jobs and businesses. The Northern state will get equal representation in the Federal Senate, but less in Congressional seats because of their population numbers being less than the one in the South. If you want to have more Congressional seats, than the population will need to increase, and the only ones that can be increased with, will be with the GC's and not settlers. The Federal Constitution will have all the safeguards for all the citizens, therefore there will not be any laws passed by the majority that will in anyway effect the "minority". I know this may not be accepted by the TC's, but I believe it will be accepted by the GC's, which means we are "halfway" away from a settlement. The other possibility as I mentioned before was, to agree on a 20% of land where most of the TC's lived before in the North and become close to 100% TC state as you possibly going to get, and then you may get your Confederate state, but of course, also be prepared for the TC's to be given their full Independence to run their own country as they please, because the rest of the 80% will just make a permanent border for once and for all with the TC's. The TC's then will run their own affairs as they please, and if the North is also in the EU at some point, then there wont even be a border and anyone once again can choose to live where ever they wanted, under the rules of that country. But the TC's then cannot make the claim that 20% of land is not enough to make it into a country, since you have already gave us that size does not matter with your above examples with Saudi Arabia and Dubai. One can become a wealth state with small land mass like Andorra was another example you have used before.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

Lets understand what dangers it is that you are talking about. I do not think they are dangers of being killed or being treated as second class citizens or not being allowed opportunities for the TC's by the GC's if and when....if ever, the new Northern State in a True Federation were to be 50-50 TC's and GC's. Your main concern of "danger" is, that it will not have 100% only TC's in the State legislature and 100% TC representation of the Northern State in the Senate and Congress. But with your own admission VP, that you want anyone to settle anywhere they want, then how do you prevent anyone living in the Northern State from running for office.?? This is where the 2004 AP gave a huge advantage for the TC's in a Confederation government in the North, that anyone running for office must also speak, read and write Turkish, as well as "kneel down" and give their allegiance to Attaturk. This would have disenfranchised many citizens of Cyprus living in the Northern State from ever getting into office or even able to work as an employee in any government office. We still do have two official languages in Cyprus, don't we.??

There is no bypassing our concerns Kikapu, I do see a danger of discrimiantion and manipulation if the north state is swamped by GCs wishing to reside there and taking control based on their numbers. We have yet to establish a climate of trust and equality, this will take time. Lets work on an example local elections allow for a GC mayor of an area in the north and this individual prefers to secretly promote the employment of GCs and stalling of applicaitons for local services for TCs how will you stop this over the term of his reign? How will you stop yet another GC coming to office with the same ideology? This is just one example where TCs will start to complain and rebel against GC local administration, this is somethign we wish to avoid as we woudl not have anywhere to run as the south woudl also be run by GCs. There has to be definate lines where the north state is run byTCs and the south stae run by GCs, indiviuals who are not happy will at least ahe the opportunity to change states and live under an adminsitration where they feel they get the best service.

Another avenue that can be explored is a transitional period where the respresentation form the north state must be TCs in order to establish and maintain a balance between the 2 states. I still support everyones right to move and live where ever they wish but imo local elections should be conducted in a manner where the GC candidates are free to run for office in the north but has to be supported by 51% of the TCs residing in his area and the same for TCs candiates in the south state, this would ensure that they were elected with the suppport of the local area they respresent.

The EU also has restrctions on those who wish to change states whereby they have to speak the local language of that state to obtain a state position well it will be the same for thoe ineither the norht state or the south, we would have to learn greek and they turkish thats a plus not a minus, the alligeince to Ataturk should not be forced but just as you swear alligence in the USA should not be taken to seriously, its a formality.

Worse case scenario, the Northern State would be 50-50. Doesn't the TC's always make the argument that they want a 50-50 of everything.?? Here is the chance to put it to practice !!!. But of course that only applies to all of Cyprus and not just to any one state, would be the response from the TC's. I still maintain, that in a True Federation, the Northern State will not have that many GC's returning back from the 200,000 thousand that were force to leave in 1974. They will be land owners from a distance while living in the Southern State, just like most TC's will remain land owners in the South while living in the North, until they choose to sell them. Therefore VP, the TC's will have the overwhelming majority in the North, not by some Undemocratic and Racist rulings, but by default because of the division and bad memories of the past 34 years. In the meantime, the TC's will enjoy the area they live now, which I believe would be accepted by majority of the GC's, because the North will be one of two states in Cyprus which everyone is a equal citizen and are free to move about, and will not be considered to be a pure TC state under a Confederation and another "country" which the GC's would feel as foreigners in their own country.

Your opening sentence is very childish and you bend like the wind you want us to agree 50% sharing then give 50% of the 50% reducing our share even further, I dont think you have thought that one through logically.

If you do not have any fears of GCs returning to the north state in large numbers then why not allieviate our concerns and allow us the benefit of the doubt and put in place safeguards to ensure that the north will always be administered by TCs "if" we are ever faced with a situation where the GCs adopt a policy to overrun the north and take conrol of all the offical representation thus handingthem the right to control the whole island without our input, whats your fear as it makes us feel more uncomfortable.

On an individual level, there isn't a difference, under normal conditions. One works, lives, votes and pays taxes as any other place. But we are not under normal conditions, are we.?? You are asking to go from a Republic to a Confederation built on land that 80% belongs to the GC's, then make it into a pure TC state with it's laws and once this Confederate state is established, then there are no safeguards to prevent it from breaking away to become Independent, whether there are GC's living there or not. Just like the arguments the TC's use about Enosis dreams of the GC's in the 60's. Majority rules right.!! The GC's are not going to agree to giving the TC's any land to make it into a Confederate state. Had the TC's were the sole owners of such land for many generations, then yes, a Confederacy could have been formed under those conditions, but the way things are right now, no way, just as the same attempts failed in America that produced the Civil War.

Arent you the one that promotes one size fits all, agree a "true federation" and you have nothing to fear now you confirm that we do not have normal conditions and that any solution has to be tailor made, thats why my tailor made BBF does not match what you see as a "true federation" In my BBF I want the GCs to feel as much at home in the north as they do in the south but everyone has to realize that Cyprus has changed for ever it will be made up of 2 equal states and any underhand tactics to undermine the balance and change the constitution or powersharing will have grave consequences. Once people realize this then they will accept each state and the union at federal level forming one country be it confederation or federation.

The TC's are never going to escape the numerical differences with the GC's in the near future in the overall population of the country. That's why having s Northern state mostly being TC's, will not make the TC's a minority in that state. They will have control of most of the state jobs and businesses. The Northern state will get equal representation in the Federal Senate, but less in Congressional seats because of their population numbers being less than the one in the South. If you want to have more Congressional seats, than the population will need to increase, and the only ones that can be increased with, will be with the GC's and not settlers. The Federal Constitution will have all the safeguards for all the citizens, therefore there will not be any laws passed by the majority that will in anyway effect the "minority". I know this may not be accepted by the TC's, but I believe it will be accepted by the GC's, which means we are "halfway" away from a settlement. The other possibility as I mentioned before was, to agree on a 20% of land where most of the TC's lived before in the North and become close to 100% TC state as you possibly going to get, and then you may get your Confederate state, but of course, also be prepared for the TC's to be given their full Independence to run their own country as they please, because the rest of the 80% will just make a permanent border for once and for all with the TC's. The TC's then will run their own affairs as they please, and if the North is also in the EU at some point, then there wont even be a border and anyone once again can choose to live where ever they wanted, under the rules of that country. But the TC's then cannot make the claim that 20% of land is not enough to make it into a country, since you have already gave us that size does not matter with your above examples with Saudi Arabia and Dubai. One can become a wealth state with small land mass like Andorra was another example you have used before.

Could you clarify the part in bold how woudl you ensure this will be the case at federal level?

As for the take 20% of the land and have your own country without GCs, you know I personally would take this opportunity with both hands as I still believe its the best soltuion for both communties but I would not enter the EU without long term derrogation especially on freedom of movement just like Malta. The % of land could be arranged after taking into account GCs wishing to live in the TRNC and disputed land transfers.

[Kikapu]

VP,

I'm sorry VP, but when ever I say tomato you say tomatoes and when I say potato you say potatoes and when ever I say "hellim", you say "nor".

I'm talking about 2 states under one country in a True Federation, but you are talking about 2 states under one country in a Confederation. The GC's have spoken on the Confederation proposal already in 2004 with a resounding NO, so why would it be a yes now. I personally think the TC's can get just as a good deal in a True Federation with 2 states and retain their majority in the North for ever, by taking a reduced size land or maintain the same as now, but certain amount of GC's will eventually will move to the North. If you are then going to accept greater land size justified by the fact certain number of GC's will move to the North, then they should be able to vote and run for office like everyone else. You cannot set limits and have one rule for the GC's with 51% TC approval on any GC candidate and another one for the TC's. The GC's may be choosing to live in Northern state, but does not mean they will lose their Federal Constitutional rights as being equal citizens. Same will of course will go to the TC's choosing to live in the South.


You ask for a certain time period to give the TC's a "head start" to formulate their positions in government in the North before the GC's arrive in large numbers. You are going to get that regardless VP, because the GC's are not going to move to the North in great numbers. Not in the near future or in the long run.

"The Federal Constitution will have all the safeguards for all the citizens, therefore there will not be any laws passed by the majority that will in anyway effect the "minority".

All this means VP, is that even if the majority wanted to pass laws that will not be in the best interest of the TC's, such as Undemocratic, Racist or violation of their Human Rights, they will not be able to do so, because they will be in violating the Federal Constitution and would be struck down by the courts when challenged. Can you imagine anyone trying to pull that crap now that Cyprus is in the EU. Not likely. All the protections and rights for all citizens will be agreed upon by the TC's, the GC's, UN and the EU before the Federal Constitution can be set up. That will be everyone's safeguard.

As for your comment about not having "normal condition in Cyprus", that is for forming a Confederate states, as I explained before, because the large portion of the land you want to have a Confederate state on belongs to others. If they agree to give that land to the TC's, then problem solved and we can have a Confederate states, but until then, we need to focus on what is more doable than not. 2004 AP told us that the GC's are not willing to give that land to the TC's in a Confederation state arrangement. I believe they will be more willing to "give" the TC's the land to build a True Federation state. Everyone remains owners of their property, despite not choosing to live on the land ruled mostly by one of the two communities.

"The EU also has restrctions on those who wish to change states whereby they have to speak the local language of that state to obtain a state position well it will be the same for thoe ineither the norht state or the south, we would have to learn greek and they turkish thats a plus not a minus, the alligeince to Ataturk should not be forced but just as you swear alligence in the USA should not be taken to seriously, its a formality"

You are correct about the EU, but that only applies to another country within the EU membership. The two states in Cyprus, be it be True Federation or a Confederation, will not be a separate country. Cyprus still be the country for both the states. The only difference is, in a Confederation, the North will be able to declare Independence from Cyprus legally, since the "Virgin Birth" concept will make the North a pure TC state, whether most of the lands belong to the GC's or not, or whether any GC's are living there or not. The TC's can give allegiance to Ataturk all they want, as long as it is in all TC schools, but should not be required if one applies to a job, a place to live, social clubs and political offices and so on. It should be left to individuals to worship Ataturk or not, but it should not be forced on others in a two states country of Cyprus. Again, if the TC's can agree on to have their own country and not be part of Cyprus any longer, the TC's can do what ever they want. They may even carve Ataturk's head on a mountain in the North, just like Mount Rushmore in the USA.

In the end VP, there's never going to be a 100% perfect solution for the TC's or the GC's. There will be difficult times no matter what system is chosen, but creating problems before we even start by wanting to divide the country on the basis of BBF 2004 AP style, is sure to lead us to further misery. Americans have been working to perfect their Federal Constitution from it's inception, and after over 200 years, we are still working on it. By you trying to find a cure to everything that may or may not happen, just like the situation with the Mayor you have described that might happen, the only thing I can tell you is, Democracy is a working and living process. We need to bring the Cypriots together, not push them apart just like what the BBF 2004 AP does. Unfortunately, there are those who want to gamble on that system. I do not want to personally.

[Viewpoint]

You have made a number of valid points and I agree with the Ataturk issue but you are still asking the TCs to gamble with the possiblity of losing control over the north state. If you leave the door wide open to this possibility and sign of hard times and it is bound to be manipulated and used to reduce our effectiveness in our own state. The reduced size of our state will happen as TCs know they will have to hand back around 10% of land and allow GCs to resettle in the north state but they will never accept the slightest possiblity of allowing GCs to run local administration in the north as then this woudl allow the GCs to takecontrol of the whole island which is exactly one of the biggest fears of the TCs. Then the GC woudl be masters in the south state and partners in the north state giing them an advantage which they could abuse when necessary.

As for the virgin birth this appears to be a red line for the TCs as the "Roc" represents a dark period in our history and has never fully belonged or represented us. Any move to the "RoC" would for us be like a defeat and a move back to how things were 45 years ago, the majority of TCs would reject this idea.

You say the majority will not be able to pass laws against the will of the TCs but you refrain from explaining or clarifying exactly how this will operate if you do not have the safeguards in the federal law, just adopting one from another federation and not tailor fiting will cause big problems in the future and allow either side with hidden agendas to proceed unhindered.

[Nikitas]

"The TC's can give allegiance to Ataturk all they want, as long as it is in all TC schools, but should not be required if one applies to a job, a place to live, social clubs and political offices and so on. It should be left to individuals to worship Ataturk or not, but it should not be forced on others in a two states country of Cyprus."

The words "worship Ataturk" are a little disturbing. How about just swearing allegiance to the state of Cyprus and leaving it there. Any mention of Ataturk by one side will invite an equally weighted oath from the other. What has the founder of Turkey got to do with Cyprus anyway?

[halil]

The Turkish Cypriot leadership and Turkey have set a one-year deadline for a solution to the decades-long Cyprus dispute.
Though the deadline is only an approximate one, the Turkish Cypriot side is not expected to allow the new Cyprus talks to drag on into the middle of 2009 and want their completion in the first months of 2008 at the latest, according to Turkish Cypriot diplomatic sources in Lefkoşa (Nicosia).