Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

kikapu, as humble as my proposal is, it is not unlike others that were agreed to in the seventies. i hope you will read it and give it your thoughts.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15874

furthermore... the island must be repopulated. no solution will be viable if the fait accompli is left without the recognition of the citizens who were displaced, either in the sixties or the seventies. bizonal does not mean the island divided in two. the pricincipal of bicommunality cannot function with only two governing bodies either. it is the recognition of our identities as individuals and as persons. in this regard there is the possibility of having a stong central government, in defence of all citizens, and their Individual Rights, the State, and two National Assemblies whose Jurisdiction over its citizenship will also be strong in that they will be providing to their electors the services that they need to enjoy their daily lives as equals, even if a majority exists, as persons, whose aim is to sustain themselves.

I read your plan along with all the comments made towards it. Without getting too involved discussing your plan, since others already have done so, you are basically asking the TC's to come back to the RoC and the 1960 Constitution, even with it's amended version. The TC's do not want to come back to the RoC and the 1960 Constitution. They want to stay in the North and turn the North into a pure Turkish state as it was in the Annan Plan and in the BBF. Secondly, they want the RoC to be dissolved so that a "Virgin Birth" will create two equal states and if one or both wants to go their separate ways in the future, they can do so.......legally. This is one of the reasons why some refuse True Federation solution, because it does not make the North pure TC state or the south pure GC state, hence the fact, they cannot just drift away and be accepted by the International community. Perfect example, the "TRNC".

[Kikapu]

I accept your apology as there is no need to insult people to make them understand what you have to say.

Now you are playing your old trick of answering a question with a question, I have answered your question many times just scroll back and you can read how I view a BBF.

Now try answering my original question of,

Where do you see the dangers if any for the TCs in your version of a BBF?

VP,

Where do you see the dangers if any for the TCs in your version of a BBF?

I must apologise again, because I really did not read your above as a question, but a statement. I must have missed the question mark. That's the reason I answered it the way I did. So, my apologies for sounding like I was asking a question without answering yours first.

Well, the "dangers" that I see that is a concern to you is, if we have a True Federation and anyone can live where ever they want, even if it means the whole 200,000 displaced GC's moving back to their homes, then the threat will be that you will not have a majority in the North, but more like a a 50-50 basis.

The reason why I put "dangers" in quotation marks was, because I was under the impression, that once we agree on a True Federal system under a "new country", that we are once again all Cypriots and did not matter where everyone lived. But I see that you still want to keep those ethnic lines very clear. The truth of the matter is, despite the GC's getting their properties back, they will not be moving to the North in great numbers. I would be very surprised if more than 50,00 would move to the North. There are of course ways to reduce this problem, and that is, that if the TC's wants to remain absolute majority for almost for ever in a state in the north, then they will have to reduce the amount of land that they are holding now to be one of the 2 states. TC's can arrange to have "their" state in an area which was mostly TC's before 1974 and expand from there to the amount of land that they think they have collectively with land in the south and in the north, and draw "their" state lines that way. The size may be close to what most believe to be around 20%, but in order to make sure the state is big enough to live and work, it should be negotiated to take a little bit more than 20%, specially if there are willing GC sellers of their land to the new "TC" state. This way, you will have the least number of GC's in "your" state, that will be a factor in electing officials. The bigger the land area, more the chance of more GC's being in it, who will also have the right to vote for any elected official.

I guess I want to believe that once we have a "new country", that we do not see ourselves as GC's and TC's, but Cypriots first. An island with a variety of what we can all bring together for a lasting future where the tourist find themselves in paradise with such rich cultures. It will be a win win for all Cypriots. After a long period of time, if we were able to achieve this cohesiveness between the ethnic groups, I believe, we can become another Switzerland, where they are Swiss first then their ethnicity, where there are no majority and minority, even though numerically speaking, one cannot change the fact, that minority and majority will always exist, but by no means be the cause to take away anyone's rights away. The Swiss have done it for over 900 years. I believe they have proven beyond any doubt that it can work. For Cyprus, we can follow in their foot steps. Better late than never.

[repulsewarrior]

VP, historically, as is their right, Turcophones were scattered all across the island. If the Right of Return is to be demonstrated meaningfully, whole communities of the displaced should have a chance to take back what was theirs, their Patrimony. Hence my view on enclaves.

Individuals of whatever Nationality should be equals, and in this context minorities are recognised and their special needs should be accomadated as well. Neither the Turkish Cypriots, nor the Greek Cypriots, can function to their full potential unless our Problem ends with a population which sees in its Solution, the greatest value as island dwellers, their Right to Association, and Mobility, as well as Expression, even if as persons they stand for other Principals as well.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu I have to start by thanking you for your positive change in attitude and acknowledging possible dangers TCs will face in the BBF you promote. I really appreciate your change and will try to respond in fashion it warrants.

Well, the "dangers" that I see that is a concern to you is, if we have a True Federation and anyone can live where ever they want, even if it means the whole 200,000 displaced GC's moving back to their homes, then the threat will be that you will not have a majority in the North, but more like a a 50-50 basis.

I also believe everyone should be able to travel and settle where ever they wish so this does not vere from what you are saying.

The reason why I put "dangers" in quotation marks was, because I was under the impression, that once we agree on a True Federal system under a "new country", that we are once again all Cypriots and did not matter where everyone lived. But I see that you still want to keep those ethnic lines very clear. The truth of the matter is, despite the GC's getting their properties back, they will not be moving to the North in great numbers. I would be very surprised if more than 50,00 would move to the North.

This for us is a real danger especially in the early stages as there is no trust between the communities but allowing everyone to move and settle freely should not restricted by there being 2 states one administered by TCs and the other by GCs, people will then be allowed the freedom to choose which state they would rather reside in. I think initally GCs may not want to reside in the north state but over time they will see the administartion will not be much different from the south and as trust increases they to will move north.

There are of course ways to reduce this problem, and that is, that if the TC's wants to remain absolute majority for almost for ever in a state in the north, then they will have to reduce the amount of land that they are holding now to be one of the 2 states. TC's can arrange to have "their" state in an area which was mostly TC's before 1974 and expand from there to the amount of land that they think they have collectively with land in the south and in the north, and draw "their" state lines that way. The size may be close to what most believe to be around 20%, but in order to make sure the state is big enough to live and work, it should be negotiated to take a little bit more than 20%, specially if there are willing GC sellers of their land to the new "TC" state. This way, you will have the least number of GC's in "your" state, that will be a factor in electing officials. The bigger the land area, more the chance of more GC's being in it, who will also have the right to vote for any elected official.

Thank you for at least trying to address our concerns by restricting land apportioned to the north state but what difference will it make if we are free to live where we wish? The problem some people will face is accepting that the administration body in the state you choose will be of different etnic origin. Another problem would be the officals elected but on a small island like ours it can be done proportionally and regional or in groups with GCs and TCs.

I guess I want to believe that once we have a "new country", that we do not see ourselves as GC's and TC's, but Cypriots first. An island with a variety of what we can all bring together for a lasting future where the tourist find themselves in paradise with such rich cultures. It will be a win win for all Cypriots. After a long period of time, if we were able to achieve this cohesiveness between the ethnic groups, I believe, we can become another Switzerland, where they are Swiss first then their ethnicity, where there are no majority and minority, even though numerically speaking, one cannot change the fact, that minority and majority will always exist, but by no means be the cause to take away anyone's rights away. The Swiss have done it for over 900 years. I believe they have proven beyond any doubt that it can work. For Cyprus, we can follow in their foot steps. Better late than never

This ideology will take many years but is not impossible trust and cooperation is the key of which we have zero at the current time. We have to start somewhere and when we address the concerns of both sides a BBF solution with 2 equal states is he bestway forward where ther will be no doors left open for one community to dominate or push the other one to one side as was the problem in the past.

[Viewpoint]

VP, historically, as is their right, Turcophones were scattered all across the island. If the Right of Return is to be demonstrated meaningfully, whole communities of the displaced should have a chance to take back what was theirs, their Patrimony. Hence my view on enclaves.

Individuals of whatever Nationality should be equals, and in this context minorities are recognised and their special needs should be accomadated as well. Neither the Turkish Cypriots, nor the Greek Cypriots, can function to their full potential unless our Problem ends with a population which sees in its Solution, the greatest value as island dwellers, their Right to Association, and Mobility, as well as Expression, even if as persons they stand for other Principals as well.

respulse not a great number of TCs will move south, maybe over time.

[repulsewarrior]

...i do not agree, because they will be able to live in a community where they are a majority, or they can live as a minority, close to these enclaves and the services they will provide. Turkish Cypriots will move south for the same reasons that Greek Cypriots will want to move north, and that will be to maximise their own prosperity from such a change.

[zan]

I doubt that very much Kiapolous because the question is very clear...Your comments are that the system you put forward is fair and it simply is not as far as Cyprus is concerned...That is why adult minds have been working on the CYprob for decades and then little old Kikapolous thinks his idea is better than theirs........

Zan the Pinocchio

You don't have a question Pinocchio, all you have is a rejection of anything that has anything to do with
True Democracy and True Federation. You don't believe in True Democracy or why else would you support a Racist, Fascist, undemocratic and violation of Human Rights plan offered in the Annan Plan. You actually enjoy dictatorship far better than even a sub democratic anything, much like what your hero Denktash did for 40 years. He even had to import foreigners from Turkey to make them "TRNC" citizens so to be able to stay on his dictatorial perch. You are one of his Fascist foot soldiers, along with his "pen-pal" hypocrite Expatkiwi. Sorry that I cannot offer you any Racist and Fascist solution plans Pinocchio. You can get one from any Fascist and Racist politicians, and I will tell you who they are, once they screw up the next settlement talks. I'll be "nice" to them and you until then.

You know when you were converting back to being a christian...Was there anything about "Democracy" in the teachings you had to study......OH you made it up as you went along Kikapolous

The importing of Greeks did not worry you then mate......

[Viewpoint]

...i do not agree, because they will be able to live in a community where they are a majority, or they can live as a minority, close to these enclaves and the services they will provide. Turkish Cypriots will move south for the same reasons that Greek Cypriots will want to move north, and that will be to maximise their own prosperity from such a change.

Have to disagree as living in enclave surrounded by GC community give me a sense of the past where TCs were forced to live in ghettos out of fear for their lives. To many bad memories.

[repulsewarrior]

perhaps that was because there were no Greek enclaves, and for whatever reason your anxiety must be overcome.

enclaves in the context i present them are hopeful in my opinion because they will allow for people an opportunity to be founders of communities which will add to their own society's diversity, as well as providing for their own distinction, which they will be able to sustain for themselves.

[zan]

perhaps that was because there were no Greek enclaves, and for whatever reason your anxiety must be overcome.

enclaves in the context i present them are hopeful in my opinion because they will allow for people an opportunity to be founders of communities which will add to their own society's diversity, as well as providing for their own distinction, which they will be able to sustain for themselves.

This is not so easy to get over RW......The thought of having GCs surrounding me and mine leave me feeling very uneasy. This does not mean the evry day GCs though that is exactly who they will be but they are not the ones in charge....