Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kikapu]

Turkey and Talat, it seems, have done their homework and have formulated their forthcoming moves on the Cyprob after the unexpected success of Christofias (which was not anticipated by the Turkish side that expected a Papadopoulos success). Probably they now have the army on their side too. Remember, it was only a while ago when CTP annoyed the army when they fail to play the Turkish national anthem or even host a picture of Kemal Ataturk at the party congress.

Recently, Talat said that 2008 will see a solution, one way or another. This he said will be either a unified state or recognition of TRNC.

I have read that after the elections, in two visits to Ankara, Talat, Erdogan and the army have agreed that the Cyprob must be solved so that the EU aspirations of Turkey can move forward. Turkey will fully cooperate in the efforts to find a solution provided the two component states of a Federal Cyprus are politically equal. The term "parthenogenesis" appeared for the first time in "Zaman" on 5/2/2008 as a reply to Papadopoulos idea of what "political equality" meant and that was equality of the citizens and not the states.

It seems Turkey has set the Annan Plan as her red line. Turkey seems to agree for changes to the Plan that can not alter its philosophy and also that the main body of work that has been done since 1974 will be at the forefront. The July 8 agreement will be utilised only as a procedural agreement that can lead to head on negotiations.

Turkey also insists that the 1960 treaty guarantees must remain in place as per London/Zurich. This now is extremely difficult for the Greek Cypriot side to digest. Perhaps the parthenogenesis factor was employed to give negotiation leverage to the Turkish side who will later "sacrifice" it so that we can accept the Turkish guarantees and the stationing of some, at least, Turkish soldiers after the solution.

In the event of no agreement, Turkey will move for the completion of the Taiwanisation process of the north and later will endeavour for the diplomatic recognition, as per Kosovo.

Zaman finally says that it was expected that Papadopoulos would come out on top and that he would reject any kind of agreement that would recognise the Turkish Cypriots as politically equal, in which case independence would have been a lively option.

Bananiot,

The one definition I have found for this word "parthenogenesis" is as follows.

"The product of a new plant or animal from a female without sexual union with a male".

This peace settlement talks are getting just a little too kinky, aren't they.

I for one will not approve of any settlement, if sexual intercourse will be forbidden between the GC's and the TC's after a settlement is reached. .

In the event of no agreement, Turkey will move for the completion of the Taiwanisation process of the north and later will endeavour for the diplomatic recognition, as per Kosovo.

I have read that after the elections, in two visits to Ankara, Talat, Erdogan and the army have agreed that the Cyprob must be solved so that the EU aspirations of Turkey can move forward

Bananiot, don't you think the two statements above contradict each other. In another words, how does Turkey plans to move ahead with their EU membership if they try to push for a Taiwanization of the "TRNC" if the talks does not produce meaningful results. Is Turkey really willing to forgo the EU membership for the sake of the "TRNC" by trying and hoping to get recognised. WHY.??????

[Kikapu]

VP, why don't you give up on the ignorance attitude as to what your version of BBF means from what a True federation is. I and Kifeas have given you many times the definition and yet you act like you have never heard of a True federation before. But it's not your fault to have been brain washed by your leaders, therefore I'll tell it to you one more time, just because I like you.!!!!

In a True Federation with 2 states and a strong central government, Cypriots of all ethnicity will be able to live and work where ever they wish. All those living in one of the two states will be able to vote to any local government political seats as well as for the countries governing body, because where the people live and they pay their taxes, is where they will vote. No one ethnic community owns that state. It is owned by all those who choose to live there. You cannot make the claim that the north will be a Turkish Cypriot state, therefore, you will want to run your state the way you want to. No mister, you will run the North on how the citizens of the North will want to run their state within the guidelines of the Federal Laws. You know what those laws are, so no point repeating them.

The south may run their the same way, but may also have slightly different results, just like we have in California and Florida. The important thing is, we have a True Democracy where the North and South are 2 states belonging to all Cypriots in a country called "United States of Cyprus". Just like California and Florida are just two states in the country of Unites States of America. Each state are run by their own citizens without discrimination or Racist and undemocratic methods. Federal government will mostly run the foreign affairs as well as national domestic issues as well as be the guardian of the constitution so that the 2 states does not violate it with their own state constitution.

Now compare this with your version of BBF and tell us what the differences are.

Why do you have to insult people to get your point of view accross??

Where do you see the dangers if any for the TCs in your version of a BBF?

VP,

I did not know that the word "ignorance" used in the context that I did above was insulting to you. I did not know that you were so sensitive, therefore I apologize.

I was hoping you would tell us what your version of BBF means that you want, even though you seem to accept my version of BBF of not being a danger to the TC's, so why don't you start pushing for my version of BBF, a True Federation rather than the one you have been feeding us for the last few years which the GC's have said NO in 2004 on the AP. However, I would still like to hear your version of BBF, so that we can compare it with mine, and lets see which one is more beneficial to most Cypriots, on the short and long run. Please don't make me ask you again.

[Kikapu]

So far no one has analysed this notion of politically equal communities. Neither has anyone offered any examples of similar federal systems where there is such equality of states or communities. Assuming words are given their obvious meaning then equal means that 150 000 Tcs are equal to 650 000 GCs and nothing moves unless there is agreement by both sides. Sounds like another recipe for deadlock which will lead to the inevitable conclusion that we cannot live together and partition is the only solution. Which then will leave the GCs without the RoC.

Perhaps those in the forum who have studied federal structures can enlighten us on the application of this equality thing in real life situation. The one federal state I know fairly well is the USA and while both California and Wyoming are equal, with two senators each in the senate, in the House of Representatives they have members according to their population, California has 80 million, Wyoming half a million. Wyoming cannot block any process in the US by asserting equality. Neither can Wyoming or any other state pull out of the union unilaterally.

In Cyprus of course we will not follow the American model, it is not good enough for us. So what are we talking about?

Nikitas,

Actually, we have 30 million residents in California, and that's plenty enough, since we also have few million illegal Immigrants also, which they call California home, since it once belonged to Mexico.!!!

Here is why the True Federation works well in the States. In California, despite being the most populous state in the Union, we only have 2 senators in the senate, same as Wyoming, as you correctly pointed out, despite Wyoming have about 1/60th population of California, therefore, all 50 States get equal senate representation. Where the population count, is in the House of Representatives. California has 53 representatives from 58 Counties . Each representative represents people of certain area in California in the congress. Some are Democrats and some are Republicans, as well as Independents. Some areas are more Republican and Democrat than other areas, but it is not unusual, in fact it is all too common to elect a Republican in a mostly Democratic areas and the same for electing a Democrat in a mostly Republican areas. California in general have more Democrats than Republicans, but we have elected just as many Republican Governors as Democratic Governors. Therefore, people cross part lines all the time. We try to elect the best person for the job.

So, to try and apply this system in Cyprus will not be difficult. This is why it would be beneficial for all Cypriots if we were to disband all political Parties, and form 3 main new ones, like Democrats, Republicans and Independents. This way, all Cypriots can vote based on philosophy and ideology and not because one is a GC and the other is a TC. But to get back to the representatives of a Federal System, if most of the TC's remained in the North and about 100,000 GC's also moved to the North, if not all 200,000, the North will be able to have around 40% of all the representatives in the North. Each representative will then vote on issues that effects the constituents he or she represents in the are they are from. These are elected individuals and are up for election once every 2 years, so if they are not performing, then they will get voted out. The President can veto any legislation, but can be overridden by 60% vote in the house and the senate. Since the senate will have equal representation from each states, the North and the South, and if the vote is 50-50 in the senate, then the vice president can cast a vote to break the deadlock. A simple majority is needed in presenting a legislation to be sent to the president to sign.

Most common complaints I hear about the True Federation reactionist or perhaps "rejectionists" is a better term, that the TC's are afraid that the GC's will vote as a block to pass laws against the interest of the TC's, because the TC's lack the numbers in population. Why would a representative in congress vote for a legislation that will be bad for the area he represents, since both GC's and TC's will be living in the same area. This is nothing but a "red herring" to avoid having a True Federation and a True Democracy. If lets say a legislation is produced by a Racist representative that will not be in the best interest of the TC's in General, what makes the "rejectionists" think, that other representatives, the senators, and the President will support such a legislation. And even if they did, a 1 in a million chance, then we will have the Supreme court which will examine the legality of such legislation to see if it would violate the rules of the constitution on Human Rights, civil rights and individual rights, plus many other rights. What these "rejectionists" are saying is, the blacks in the States are only 10% of the population, which means the majority being whites, they can put a legislation forward that can make slavery once again legal. Sorry, even if the whole country voted for such laws, the supreme court will strike it down as being unconstitutional.

We want True Federation and True Democracy for Cyprus. Those who do not want the above, can move to any on of the Middle Eastern countries, and see how they would like to live under a non True Democratic Laws.

[halil]

TALAT: SOLUTION COULD BE FOUND TO THE CYPRUS PROBLEM BY THE END OF 2008

TC leader Mehmet Ali Talat has said a comprehensive solution could be found to the Cyprus problem by the end of 2008 if the founding stones of the Annan Plan – which was a huge body of work, were taken as a basis for a solution
Stressing the need to set a timeframe for the negotiations, TC leader Talat said “the Turkish Cypriot Side’s proposal for a timeframe was the end of 2008 but we are ready to discuss any timeframe to be proposed by the Greek Cypriot Side”.

In an exclusive interview to the BRT World, President Talat
expressed the belief that the change in leadership in South Cyprus would lead to a change in attitude and said that the Turkish Cypriot Side was hopeful to move forward to a comprehensive solution.

He stated that the two leaders should be engaged in a new process which would be fully fledged manner.

The President said although the Turkish Cypriot Side was disappointed with the rejection of the Annan Plan by the Greek Cypriot Side, they were still in support of a solution.

‘We have been ready for a solution since 2004. Our unchanged position is to solve the Cyprus problem in a comprehensive way` the President said.

Stressing the need to set a timeframe for negotiations, President Talat said `you cannot negotiate indefinitely. For a comprehensive solution, a target is needed`.

Mr Talat noted that the Turkish Cypriot Side’s proposal for a timeframe is the end of 2008 but added that he was ready to discuss any timeframe which could be proposed by the Greek Cypriot Side.

The TC Leader also stressed that the political equality of the Turkish Cypriot People and Greek Cypriot People, equal status of two constituent states and the continuation of 1960 guaranty system were of paramount importance for the Turkish Cypriot Side, pointing out that all these are compatible with the UN Security Council resolutions.

The TC leader also added that the new state to be formed would be a new partnership state, not the transformation of the Republic of Cyprus and the TRNC.

Asked whether the Annan Plan and the 8-July Process would be on the negotiations table once the talks between the two leaders start, the President said the two are not alternatives of each other.

`The Annan Plan was a comprehensive settlement plan prepared at the end of years long negotiations while the 8-July process was just an agreement on procedure` he said, reminding that the 8-July agreement was used by former Greek Cypriot Leader Tassos Papadopulos for his delaying tactics.

On promises made by the EU, the President pointed out that the Union has failed to implement the decisions it took soon after the referenda as a response to the Turkish Cypriot Side’s approval of the UN peace plan.

But, the President added that the EU would now feel more obliged to help to find a solution to the Cyprus problem.

He said the EU – which has the Greek Cypriot Administration and Greece as members - cannot be an honest broker but added that the Union could facilitate a solution by encouraging the Greek Cypriot Side for a settlement.

`The EU can say the Greek Cypriot Side that an EU member country cannot be divided and that it should find a solution to the problem` he said, adding that the lifting of the isolation will also keep the Turkish Cypriot Side in a stance in support of a solution and will increase the confidence with the EU and international community.

On relations between the two sides, President Talat said the two peoples have become more distant from each other as a result of the rejection of the UN Peace Plan and the Greek Cypriot Administration’s hostile stance against the Turkish Cypriot people.

`But if the negotiations start, I am hundred percent sure that relations between the two people will start to improve` he noted, adding that the two leaders in Cyprus should prepare their peoples to a solution and should make a plan acceptable for the two sides.

Asked whether it would be possible to solve the Cyprus problem by the end of 2008, the President said `if we have good will, why not`.

Mr Talat said `now we have many months. It should be very easy to concentrate on the issue. We have a huge body of work, We have the Annan Plan and work of the UN and the international community.

[repulsewarrior]

kikapu, as humble as my proposal is, it is not unlike others that were agreed to in the seventies. i hope you will read it and give it your thoughts.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15874

furthermore... the island must be repopulated. no solution will be viable if the fait accompli is left without the recognition of the citizens who were displaced, either in the sixties or the seventies. bizonal does not mean the island divided in two. the pricincipal of bicommunality cannot function with only two governing bodies either. it is the recognition of our identities as individuals and as persons. in this regard there is the possibility of having a stong central government, in defence of all citizens, and their Individual Rights, the State, and two National Assemblies whose Jurisdiction over its citizenship will also be strong in that they will be providing to their electors the services that they need to enjoy their daily lives as equals, even if a majority exists, as persons, whose aim is to sustain themselves.

[Viewpoint]

VP, why don't you give up on the ignorance attitude as to what your version of BBF means from what a True federation is. I and Kifeas have given you many times the definition and yet you act like you have never heard of a True federation before. But it's not your fault to have been brain washed by your leaders, therefore I'll tell it to you one more time, just because I like you.!!!!

In a True Federation with 2 states and a strong central government, Cypriots of all ethnicity will be able to live and work where ever they wish. All those living in one of the two states will be able to vote to any local government political seats as well as for the countries governing body, because where the people live and they pay their taxes, is where they will vote. No one ethnic community owns that state. It is owned by all those who choose to live there. You cannot make the claim that the north will be a Turkish Cypriot state, therefore, you will want to run your state the way you want to. No mister, you will run the North on how the citizens of the North will want to run their state within the guidelines of the Federal Laws. You know what those laws are, so no point repeating them.

The south may run their the same way, but may also have slightly different results, just like we have in California and Florida. The important thing is, we have a True Democracy where the North and South are 2 states belonging to all Cypriots in a country called "United States of Cyprus". Just like California and Florida are just two states in the country of Unites States of America. Each state are run by their own citizens without discrimination or Racist and undemocratic methods. Federal government will mostly run the foreign affairs as well as national domestic issues as well as be the guardian of the constitution so that the 2 states does not violate it with their own state constitution.

Now compare this with your version of BBF and tell us what the differences are.

Why do you have to insult people to get your point of view accross??

Where do you see the dangers if any for the TCs in your version of a BBF?

VP,

I did not know that the word "ignorance" used in the context that I did above was insulting to you. I did not know that you were so sensitive, therefore I apologize.

I was hoping you would tell us what your version of BBF means that you want, even though you seem to accept my version of BBF of not being a danger to the TC's, so why don't you start pushing for my version of BBF, a True Federation rather than the one you have been feeding us for the last few years which the GC's have said NO in 2004 on the AP. However, I would still like to hear your version of BBF, so that we can compare it with mine, and lets see which one is more beneficial to most Cypriots, on the short and long run. Please don't make me ask you again.

I accept your apology as there is no need to insult people to make them understand what you have to say.

Now you are playing your old trick of answering a question with a question, I have answered your question many times just scroll back and you can read how I view a BBF.

Now try answering my original question of,

Where do you see the dangers if any for the TCs in your version of a BBF?

[Get Real!]

The one definition I have found for this word "parthenogenesis" is as follows.

"The product of a new plant or animal from a female without sexual union with a male".

This peace settlement talks are getting just a little too kinky, aren't they.

I for one will not approve of any settlement, if sexual intercourse will be forbidden between the GC's and the TC's after a settlement is reached. .

Sounds like Cyprus has to turn into an Amoeba...

[Oracle]

The one definition I have found for this word "parthenogenesis" is as follows.

"The product of a new plant or animal from a female without sexual union with a male".

This peace settlement talks are getting just a little too kinky, aren't they.

I for one will not approve of any settlement, if sexual intercourse will be forbidden between the GC's and the TC's after a settlement is reached. .

Sounds like Cyprus has to turn into an Amoeba...

... the "TRNC" can be the pseudopodium ....

[zan]

So far no one has analysed this notion of politically equal communities. Neither has anyone offered any examples of similar federal systems where there is such equality of states or communities. Assuming words are given their obvious meaning then equal means that 150 000 Tcs are equal to 650 000 GCs and nothing moves unless there is agreement by both sides. Sounds like another recipe for deadlock which will lead to the inevitable conclusion that we cannot live together and partition is the only solution. Which then will leave the GCs without the RoC.

Perhaps those in the forum who have studied federal structures can enlighten us on the application of this equality thing in real life situation. The one federal state I know fairly well is the USA and while both California and Wyoming are equal, with two senators each in the senate, in the House of Representatives they have members according to their population, California has 80 million, Wyoming half a million. Wyoming cannot block any process in the US by asserting equality. Neither can Wyoming or any other state pull out of the union unilaterally.

In Cyprus of course we will not follow the American model, it is not good enough for us. So what are we talking about?

Nikitas,

Actually, we have 30 million residents in California, and that's plenty enough, since we also have few million illegal Immigrants also, which they call California home, since it once belonged to Mexico.!!!

Here is why the True Federation works well in the States. In California, despite being the most populous state in the Union, we only have 2 senators in the senate, same as Wyoming, as you correctly pointed out, despite Wyoming have about 1/60th population of California, therefore, all 50 States get equal senate representation. Where the population count, is in the House of Representatives. California has 53 representatives from 58 Counties . Each representative represents people of certain area in California in the congress. Some are Democrats and some are Republicans, as well as Independents. Some areas are more Republican and Democrat than other areas, but it is not unusual, in fact it is all too common to elect a Republican in a mostly Democratic areas and the same for electing a Democrat in a mostly Republican areas. California in general have more Democrats than Republicans, but we have elected just as many Republican Governors as Democratic Governors. Therefore, people cross part lines all the time. We try to elect the best person for the job.

So, to try and apply this system in Cyprus will not be difficult. This is why it would be beneficial for all Cypriots if we were to disband all political Parties, and form 3 main new ones, like Democrats, Republicans and Independents. This way, all Cypriots can vote based on philosophy and ideology and not because one is a GC and the other is a TC. But to get back to the representatives of a Federal System, if most of the TC's remained in the North and about 100,000 GC's also moved to the North, if not all 200,000, the North will be able to have around 40% of all the representatives in the North. Each representative will then vote on issues that effects the constituents he or she represents in the are they are from. These are elected individuals and are up for election once every 2 years, so if they are not performing, then they will get voted out. The President can veto any legislation, but can be overridden by 60% vote in the house and the senate. Since the senate will have equal representation from each states, the North and the South, and if the vote is 50-50 in the senate, then the vice president can cast a vote to break the deadlock. A simple majority is needed in presenting a legislation to be sent to the president to sign.

Most common complaints I hear about the True Federation reactionist or perhaps "rejectionists" is a better term, that the TC's are afraid that the GC's will vote as a block to pass laws against the interest of the TC's, because the TC's lack the numbers in population. Why would a representative in congress vote for a legislation that will be bad for the area he represents, since both GC's and TC's will be living in the same area. This is nothing but a "red herring" to avoid having a True Federation and a True Democracy. If lets say a legislation is produced by a Racist representative that will not be in the best interest of the TC's in General, what makes the "rejectionists" think, that other representatives, the senators, and the President will support such a legislation. And even if they did, a 1 in a million chance, then we will have the Supreme court which will examine the legality of such legislation to see if it would violate the rules of the constitution on Human Rights, civil rights and individual rights, plus many other rights. What these "rejectionists" are saying is, the blacks in the States are only 10% of the population, which means the majority being whites, they can put a legislation forward that can make slavery once again legal. Sorry, even if the whole country voted for such laws, the supreme court will strike it down as being unconstitutional.

We want True Federation and True Democracy for Cyprus. Those who do not want the above, can move to any on of the Middle Eastern countries, and see how they would like to live under a non True Democratic Laws.

Who was it that voted to go into Iraq and who is it that is protesting this move then Kiks????? Funny guy you are!!!

[repulsewarrior]

The one definition I have found for this word "parthenogenesis" is as follows.

"The product of a new plant or animal from a female without sexual union with a male".

This peace settlement talks are getting just a little too kinky, aren't they.

I for one will not approve of any settlement, if sexual intercourse will be forbidden between the GC's and the TC's after a settlement is reached. .

Sounds like Cyprus has to turn into an Amoeba...

...not exactly, but to find these creatures go back 400 million years or so.
leaf like, the scales of a fish, bones with no flesh, like coral they had roots and they had no need to dominate.