Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Sorry VP, but accepting that each of the states will have a majority of Cypriot permanet residents originating from each one of the two communities respectively, does not equate with it being regarded as the “ownership" region of each of these two communities, nor that it should be exclusively governed by this community, alone, and the rest of Cypriots originating from the other community, will be regarded as the tax-paying guests of the “host” community in her “own” region! If this is what you have understood, then you have definitely gotten it all wrong! If this I what you want, then we can offer you an agreed complete partition, once you withdraw to only the 18% of the country, which corresponds with your population and property ownership (this was even smaller that 18%) ratio as a community, vs. the total! The choice is yours!

Kifeas now you are being bloody minded as you know full well that the "ownership" of a united Cyprus will be its people, taxes will pooled and used to meet the needs of both states, the only difference will be the administrative body in each state one GC the other TC. You appear uncomfortable that the TCs will be given what the GCs only see fit for themselves "power" at local level. You really have to accept us as equals and only then will you understand the basis for sharing. You obviously have difficulties accepting therefore supporting a BBF, could you tell us exactly your version of what you see our role will be in your BBF solution as envisaged by yourself.

If you offered me personally a total division after an independent board confirmed the % I would accept because I am right in thinking that GCs cannot and will never compromise as they do not want to share, you are a prime example of this fact, your version of sharing equally is when GC are in total control.

VP, why don't you give up on the ignorance attitude as to what your version of BBF means from what a True federation is. I and Kifeas have given you many times the definition and yet you act like you have never heard of a True federation before. But it's not your fault to have been brain washed by your leaders, therefore I'll tell it to you one more time, just because I like you.!!!!

In a True Federation with 2 states and a strong central government, Cypriots of all ethnicity will be able to live and work where ever they wish. All those living in one of the two states will be able to vote to any local government political seats as well as for the countries governing body, because where the people live and they pay their taxes, is where they will vote. No one ethnic community owns that state. It is owned by all those who choose to live there. You cannot make the claim that the north will be a Turkish Cypriot state, therefore, you will want to run your state the way you want to. No mister, you will run the North on how the citizens of the North will want to run their state within the guidelines of the Federal Laws. You know what those laws are, so no point repeating them.

The south may run their the same way, but may also have slightly different results, just like we have in California and Florida. The important thing is, we have a True Democracy where the North and South are 2 states belonging to all Cypriots in a country called "United States of Cyprus". Just like California and Florida are just two states in the country of Unites States of America. Each state are run by their own citizens without discrimination or Racist and undemocratic methods. Federal government will mostly run the foreign affairs as well as national domestic issues as well as be the guardian of the constitution so that the 2 states does not violate it with their own state constitution.

Now compare this with your version of BBF and tell us what the differences are.

Why do you have to insult people to get your point of view accross??

Where do you see the dangers if any for the TCs in your version of a BBF?

[Viewpoint]

It is not just VP who gets it wrong, Talat also has said at times that allowing refugees to return to their properties annuls the meaning of bizonality and biregionality, in other words he wants a separation along race lines. Gul said as much when he emphasised the differences of language, religion etc. This line wil be held to the very end, no doubt with understanding shown by the EU nations who otherwise uphold the values of multi cultural societies.Iguess there must be a difference between being multi and being bi.

We see BBF pretty much like the AP 2 constituent states under a federal Government where the TCs run the north and the GCs run the south.

[Big Al]

25 pages of conflict and insults between GC's and TC's on this topic and yet no consensus, and yet some of you fools still think you can have a united cyprus......what a joke.

[repulsewarrior]

Frankly Big Al I find this discussion most constructive. And the dialog is important to anyone who cares.

[Big Al]

Ok, lets have another 30 plus years of beating our heads against a wall ...sorry i meant "constructive discussions" before we realise unification wont happen ok??

[miltiades]

25 pages of conflict and insults between GC's and TC's on this topic and yet no consensus, and yet some of you fools still think you can have a united cyprus......what a joke.

As you say between G/Cs and T/Cs , so what is it to do with you foreigner ? Isnt your own country , Turkey , big enough for you ?

[halil]

CEMIL CICEK SAYS THE SOLUTION WILL BE BASED ON POLITICAL EQUALITY
Turkish Deputy Prime Minister and the Minister of State in charge of Cyprus Affairs- Cemil Cicek has highlighted the political equality of the two sides in Cyprus and said any possible solution to the Cyprus problem will be based on this reality.

Cemil Cicek arrived in the TRNC testerday to attend the founding laying ceremony of the Faculty of Medicine at the Near East University.The faculty building which is expected to be completed in July will be a complex located on a 8 thousand 500 meters square field equipped with a modern technology.
Speaking during the ceremony, Cemil Cicek stressed that the Cyprus issue is the most long-lasting dispute of the close history.

`Despite of this fact, a mutually acceptable, just and lasting settlement could not be brought on the island` he said.

Mr Cicek went on saying that the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus has never been the reason for leaving the Cyprus problem unsolved, adding that the TRNC has always been on the side of peace.

Stating that the reason for the non-solution is the Greek Cypriot side, the Turkish Minister of State expressed the hope that 2008 will create a new opportunity for a settlement.

`We do want a solution. We hope that every one comes to realize this fact and removes the international isolation of the Turkish Cypriot People`.

Underlining the guarantor power of Turkey on the island, Cemil Cicek said it is out of question to back down on this right.

Also speaking, Prime Minister Ferdi Sabit Soyer stated that the reason for the Greek Cypriot side to change its administration is the Turkish side’s committment to a settlement and the Annan Plan and its way of showing this to the world in a persuasive way.

Pointing to the importance of foreign contacts, the Premier said the Turkish Cypriot side will sit at the negotiation table with a strong hand.

[Bananiot]

Turkey and Talat, it seems, have done their homework and have formulated their forthcoming moves on the Cyprob after the unexpected success of Christofias (which was not anticipated by the Turkish side that expected a Papadopoulos success). Probably they now have the army on their side too. Remember, it was only a while ago when CTP annoyed the army when they fail to play the Turkish national anthem or even host a picture of Kemal Ataturk at the party congress.

Recently, Talat said that 2008 will see a solution, one way or another. This he said will be either a unified state or recognition of TRNC.

I have read that after the elections, in two visits to Ankara, Talat, Erdogan and the army have agreed that the Cyprob must be solved so that the EU aspirations of Turkey can move forward. Turkey will fully cooperate in the efforts to find a solution provided the two component states of a Federal Cyprus are politically equal. The term "parthenogenesis" appeared for the first time in "Zaman" on 5/2/2008 as a reply to Papadopoulos idea of what "political equality" meant and that was equality of the citizens and not the states.

It seems Turkey has set the Annan Plan as her red line. Turkey seems to agree for changes to the Plan that can not alter its philosophy and also that the main body of work that has been done since 1974 will be at the forefront. The July 8 agreement will be utilised only as a procedural agreement that can lead to head on negotiations.

Turkey also insists that the 1960 treaty guarantees must remain in place as per London/Zurich. This now is extremely difficult for the Greek Cypriot side to digest. Perhaps the parthenogenesis factor was employed to give negotiation leverage to the Turkish side who will later "sacrifice" it so that we can accept the Turkish guarantees and the stationing of some, at least, Turkish soldiers after the solution.

In the event of no agreement, Turkey will move for the completion of the Taiwanisation process of the north and later will endeavour for the diplomatic recognition, as per Kosovo.

Zaman finally says that it was expected that Papadopoulos would come out on top and that he would reject any kind of agreement that would recognise the Turkish Cypriots as politically equal, in which case independence would have been a lively option.

[Jerry]

Turkey and Talat, it seems, have done their homework and have formulated their forthcoming moves on the Cyprob after the unexpected success of Christofias (which was not anticipated by the Turkish side that expected a Papadopoulos success). Probably they now have the army on their side too. Remember, it was only a while ago when CTP annoyed the army when they fail to play the Turkish national anthem or even host a picture of Kemal Ataturk at the party congress.

Recently, Talat said that 2008 will see a solution, one way or another. This he said will be either a unified state or recognition of TRNC.

I have read that after the elections, in two visits to Ankara, Talat, Erdogan and the army have agreed that the Cyprob must be solved so that the EU aspirations of Turkey can move forward. Turkey will fully cooperate in the efforts to find a solution provided the two component states of a Federal Cyprus are politically equal. The term "parthenogenesis" appeared for the first time in "Zaman" on 5/2/2008 as a reply to Papadopoulos idea of what "political equality" meant and that was equality of the citizens and not the states.

It seems Turkey has set the Annan Plan as her red line. Turkey seems to agree for changes to the Plan that can not alter its philosophy and also that the main body of work that has been done since 1974 will be at the forefront. The July 8 agreement will be utilised only as a procedural agreement that can lead to head on negotiations.

Turkey also insists that the 1960 treaty guarantees must remain in place as per London/Zurich. This now is extremely difficult for the Greek Cypriot side to digest. Perhaps the parthenogenesis factor was employed to give negotiation leverage to the Turkish side who will later "sacrifice" it so that we can accept the Turkish guarantees and the stationing of some, at least, Turkish soldiers after the solution.

In the event of no agreement, Turkey will move for the completion of the Taiwanisation process of the north and later will endeavour for the diplomatic recognition, as per Kosovo.

Zaman finally says that it was expected that Papadopoulos would come out on top and that he would reject any kind of agreement that would recognise the Turkish Cypriots as politically equal, in which case independence would have been a lively option.

What a pity we don't have a few more well written and informative posts on this forum like this instead of the usual handbag fights.

[Nikitas]

So far no one has analysed this notion of politically equal communities. Neither has anyone offered any examples of similar federal systems where there is such equality of states or communities. Assuming words are given their obvious meaning then equal means that 150 000 Tcs are equal to 650 000 GCs and nothing moves unless there is agreement by both sides. Sounds like another recipe for deadlock which will lead to the inevitable conclusion that we cannot live together and partition is the only solution. Which then will leave the GCs without the RoC.

Perhaps those in the forum who have studied federal structures can enlighten us on the application of this equality thing in real life situation. The one federal state I know fairly well is the USA and while both California and Wyoming are equal, with two senators each in the senate, in the House of Representatives they have members according to their population, California has 80 million, Wyoming half a million. Wyoming cannot block any process in the US by asserting equality. Neither can Wyoming or any other state pull out of the union unilaterally.

In Cyprus of course we will not follow the American model, it is not good enough for us. So what are we talking about?