Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu I honestly don' tunderstand your logic. It is all based on constantly preasuring TC's and Turkey by every means possible no mater what. What I am trying to say is that it is backfiring. What is wrong with lifting the embargoes? First you say Turkey will win 500 million a year out of it then you turn around and say that we will not be capable of turning things economically around. The TC economy improving will bring some stability to the north, create new jobs and bring back TC's from abroad at the same time decrease the number of TC's immigrating. With the improvement, the relations between Turkey and TC's will change as well, like GC's and Greece at the moment. The question is why not? To you the answer is GC's not gaining anything. If a soln would come along, the GC's wouldn't have any burden of finacing the improvment of the north.

Umit, the obstacle to a solution, from a GC perspective, is not the possible need or "burden" of financing the north! If you haven't grasped this yet, I wonder what you have been doing all this time! The obstacle to a solution is the illegitimate requirements and objectives set forward by the Turkish side, visa vie the terms and the nature of the solution!

Exactly which of our demands do you deplore and which can you stomach?

I can to some extent stomach your demand for political equality, as a community, provided this will be based on the definition adopted by the UN SC resolutions.

I can stomach to some extent your demand of a two state federation, and the equal status of the two states, provided they will not be solely based on ethnic lines and agendas, and if the human, cultural and political rights of each and every Cypriot citizen will be safeguarded anywhere in Cyprus and in both states.

I can also stomach your security concerns and the need for adequate guarantees.

Beyond the above, all the rest of your requirements and objectives are grossly illegitimate and unacceptable!

Basically the points you have stomached are our red lines so whats the problem?, what is it you actually cannot stomach?

VP, either you did not carefully read and comprehend what I have written above, or you are not sincere; because I cannot believe you are such a detached person with reality and the actual requirements and objectives of your (Turkish and TC) side!

Kifeas Im really trying to understand how people like you think, nothing to do with being insincere, the points you can stomach are those that we want, thats why I asked for those that are you red lines and which you will never stomach no matter what.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu I honestly don' tunderstand your logic. It is all based on constantly preasuring TC's and Turkey by every means possible no mater what. What I am trying to say is that it is backfiring. What is wrong with lifting the embargoes? First you say Turkey will win 500 million a year out of it then you turn around and say that we will not be capable of turning things economically around. The TC economy improving will bring some stability to the north, create new jobs and bring back TC's from abroad at the same time decrease the number of TC's immigrating. With the improvement, the relations between Turkey and TC's will change as well, like GC's and Greece at the moment. The question is why not? To you the answer is GC's not gaining anything. If a soln would come along, the GC's wouldn't have any burden of finacing the improvment of the north.

It's fair to say that the RoC and Turkey are at "war" together, and during these times the "TRNC" is on the side of Turkey, despite the TC's being from Cyprus. Can you explain to me why the RoC would help to lift the embargoes imposed on the "TRNC" by the International Community, when the benefits will only serve the interest of Turkey. To the "TRNC" the situation will remain the same, whether the money comes from Turkey, or through trade with outside world. Isn't it true that the "TRNC" already trades with the outside world right now, and yet Turkey still pumps in $500 Million Dollars per year. Any tourist that wishes to go to the North, can do so easily from anywhere around the world, so why don't they in huge numbers.? The world can also as sell their products directly or via Turkey to the "TRNC". How else would you explain on all those BMW's being sold in the "TRNC". So where is the problem Umit07. Just what is it that's missing in the North, that you are not able to buy. If there is anything that cannot be imported at a reasonable cost, then why not use the other avenue that is available to the "TRNC", and that is through the RoC ports. So, it is not as if the "TRNC" is not trading with the outside world, it is only they have so much that the outside world needs or wants from them. But to answer your embargo question more directly, why doesn't the TC's trade via the RoC,

1) if they are really serious about stop being dependent on Turkey

2) show that they are willing to work with the GC's

3) build a good working relationship with the GC's to pave a better understanding and assistance to each other on the road to a settlement and unification

4) to dispel the GC's concerns that the TC's will not push for a complete partition by having Direct Flights and Trade by slowly chipping away the non-recognition status of the "TRNC" because economically they are much stronger with the help of the RoC.

The TC's will be able to trade all they want and with whom if we find a settlement, even under a True Federation. But The TC's do not want a True Federation, because that is not their aim for the long term. The long term is to Partition the island as legally as possible, since partitioning the island illegally has not brought the results since 1983, due to the nonrecognition of the "TRNC". To complicate matters even more, Cyprus has entered the EU Club, so now, the only avenue left for the TC's for a legal Partition, is through the much wished and hoped on the BBF. How you ever heard Turkey asking for a recognition of the "TRNC" Umit07.?? I have not. Did you ever wonder why.?? Perhaps Turkey does not want a partition for the "TRNC". Perhaps an illegal partition would spell disaster for Turkey's EU memberships hopes. Perhaps a legal partition for the "TRNC" means loss of Turkey influence in the "new country" called the TRNC. For the "TRNC" to become a legal state, it will have to face up to one hell of a cost from paying the GC's for their land as well as reducing the size of their "new country". You are going to have to sell a lot of "Hellim" to the outside world to even put a dent in the cost of the formation of the "new legal country".

The only one's you hear who talk about partition are the Talat and Company, as if they have any control in their own destiny. It is nothing more than posturing, as if to say, "if the RoC does not give us BBF (disguised legal partition) we will go for partition". Hasn't that been tried since 1983??. Now the new posturing is, that the partition will happen in 2008 if the RoC does not agree on BBF. Well, the clock is running and will continue to run and the situation will not change for the "TRNC" this year or the next 20, unless a settlement is found that is fair to most Cypriots. We are dealing with a lot of amateurs who thinks they can demand everything just because they have the Turkish Army there to make these demands. Another reason as to why the RoC will not lift a finger to help get rid of the embargoes, since it will not help solve the situation we are in. Would you give your "enemy" everything that they ask for voluntarily, without at least meeting you halfway.?? My guess is "not on your life".!!

[Kifeas]

VP, I said “I can to some extent stomach your demand for political equality, as a community, provided this will be based on the definition adopted by the UN SC resolutions.”

Furthermore, I said that “I can stomach to some extent your demand of a two state federation, and the equal status of the two states, provided they will not be solely based on ethnic lines and agendas; and provided the human, cultural, political, civil and herritage rights of each and every Cypriot citizen and every community, will be safeguarded anywhere in Cyprus and in both states.”

This is not what you essentially demand, but you have increased further and expanded your requirements, and you not only demand political equality as a community (as the term "community" was established in the 1960 constitution;) but instead you demand political equality and a co-founding partnership status of only the central (federal) government, as a separate people and a separate “nation-state" and on the basis of a “virgin birth” approach.

You refuse the existence, legal status and continuation of the 1960 RoC, you pretend it doesn’t exist, and you also want us to indirectly accept this theory of yours; you want us to indirectly accept that what currently exists as the RoC should be indirectly demoted to a so-called “Greek Republic (administration) of Southern Cyprus,” you want us to forget and indirectly accept the institutional eradication of our historically inherited, natural, existential, cultural and civil rights, as Greek Cypriots, in the northern part of our country; you want us to indirectly accept that the legally invalidated in the eyes of international law “TRNC” should be promoted to a so-called TurkishCypriot “nation-state,” by indirectly accepting your thesis that the illegally occupied north -after our ethnic cleansing from there after 3,500 years of natural and historical habitation, has now “legitimately” become an inherently Turkish owned land or territory –one that now “belongs” to the Turkish Cypriot “nation” (people;) and on the basis of all the above acknowledgements, to also accept you as the co-founding (separate people and state) entity -together with the “corresponding” Greek Cypriot “nation-state” in the south, of the newly established federal government in the middle, while retaining as the TC “people” the exclusive internal sovereignty of the entire northern TC state!

Now, compare what you want, with what I stated above, and tell me if they mean the same thing!

[Viewpoint]

VP, I said “I can to some extent stomach your demand for political equality, as a community, provided this will be based on the definition adopted by the UN SC resolutions.”

Furthermore, I said that “I can stomach to some extent your demand of a two state federation, and the equal status of the two states, provided they will not be solely based on ethnic lines and agendas; and provided the human, cultural, political, civil and herritage rights of each and every Cypriot citizen and every community, will be safeguarded anywhere in Cyprus and in both states.”

This is not what you essentially demand, but you have increased further and expanded your requirements, and you not only demand political equality as a community (as the term "community" was established in the 1960 constitution;) but instead you demand political equality and a co-founding partnership status of only the central (federal) government, as a separate people and a separate “nation-state" and on the basis of a “virgin birth” approach.

You refuse the existence, legal status and continuation of the 1960 RoC, you pretend it doesn’t exist, and you also want us to indirectly accept this theory of yours; you want us to indirectly accept that what currently exists as the RoC should be indirectly demoted to a so-called “Greek Republic (administration) of Southern Cyprus,” you want us to forget and indirectly accept the institutional eradication of our historically inherited, natural, existential, cultural and civil rights, as Greek Cypriots, in the northern part of our country; you want us to indirectly accept that the legally invalidated in the eyes of international law “TRNC” should be promoted to a so-called TurkishCypriot “nation-state,” by indirectly accepting your thesis that the illegally occupied north -after our ethnic cleansing from there after 3,500 years of natural and historical habitation, has now “legitimately” become an inherently Turkish owned land or territory –one that now “belongs” to the Turkish Cypriot “nation” (people;) and on the basis of all the above acknowledgements, to also accept you as the co-founding (separate people and state) entity -together with the “corresponding” Greek Cypriot “nation-state” in the south, of the newly established federal government in the middle, while retaining as the TC “people” the exclusive internal sovereignty of the entire northern TC state!

Now, compare what you want, with what I stated above, and tell me if they mean the same thing!

Kifeas you are over reacting, does wanting to govern our own region where we can live peacefully with GCs mean all the above? does wanting to make a fresh start (virgin birth) and get rid of 2 entities which effect both sides negatively mean all of the above? does allowing you to settle where ever you wish on th siland mean all of the above? does adopting the voting system you aourself put forward mean all of the above? does having 2 states joined at the federal level mean all of the above? You appear to paranoid at the fact that you have to share the island with TCs, you have to come to terms with facts that we are not only equal as individuals but also as communites and that boths sides have to have a right to say no to something that will effect them negatively, I thought we got over that issue obviously you are still struggling with seeing us TCs as indigenous as yourself.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas you are over reacting, does wanting to govern our own region where we can live peacefully with GCs mean all the above? does wanting to make a fresh start (virgin birth) and get rid of 2 entities which effect both sides negatively mean all of the above? does allowing you to settle where ever you wish on th siland mean all of the above? does adopting the voting system you aourself put forward mean all of the above? does having 2 states joined at the federal level mean all of the above? You appear to paranoid at the fact that you have to share the island with TCs, you have to come to terms with facts that we are not only equal as individuals but also as communites and that boths sides have to have a right to say no to something that will effect them negatively, I thought we got over that issue obviously you are still struggling with seeing us TCs as indigenous as yourself.

VP, you are insincere and basically talk nonsense!

You begin by saying: "...does wanting to govern our own region ..." On what basis it is your own region, and therefore you should govern it alone? Who gave you the ownership tittles of what is historically and legally regarded as a GC homeland, by majority, for thousands of years now? Who gave you the ownership of 30% of Cyprus and more than 50% of its coastlines, that you wish to regard as your own region?


PS: I am sorry, but if the discussion with you is going to be carried along on the basis of such absurdities and provocative claims, I truly have no time to waste!

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas you are over reacting, does wanting to govern our own region where we can live peacefully with GCs mean all the above? does wanting to make a fresh start (virgin birth) and get rid of 2 entities which effect both sides negatively mean all of the above? does allowing you to settle where ever you wish on th siland mean all of the above? does adopting the voting system you aourself put forward mean all of the above? does having 2 states joined at the federal level mean all of the above? You appear to paranoid at the fact that you have to share the island with TCs, you have to come to terms with facts that we are not only equal as individuals but also as communites and that boths sides have to have a right to say no to something that will effect them negatively, I thought we got over that issue obviously you are still struggling with seeing us TCs as indigenous as yourself.

VP, you are insincere and basically talk nonsense!

You begin by saying: "...does wanting to govern our own region ..." On what basis it is your own region, and therefore you should govern it alone? Who gave you the ownership tittles of what is historically and legally regarded as a GC homeland, by majority, for thousands of years now?


PS: I am sorry, but if the discussion with you is going to be carried along on the basis of such absurdities and provocative claims, I truly have no time to waste!

Kifeas you appear to be on the run from what you and your leaders have been claiming you support, isnt a BBF composed of 2 regions one administered by TCs and other by GCs, joined together at a Federal level? have you changed your minds yet again? This type of structure will not deny you the right to come settle in the north state or me the right to go south if that is what we wish.

Your stonewalling appears to hide your real intentions which is to impose GC rule over the whole island, your heritage is not going anywhere it will be restored and looked after by both of us for everyone who resides north or south.

You choose not to detail exactly what you cannot stomach, is the fact that we will administer part of Cyprus? you see this fit for GCs but not TCs why is that??? are we not equals?

[Kifeas]

Sorry VP, but accepting that each of the states will have a majority of Cypriot permanet residents originating from each one of the two communities respectively, does not equate with it being regarded as the “ownership" region of each of these two communities, nor that it should be exclusively governed by this community, alone, and the rest of Cypriots originating from the other community, will be regarded as the tax-paying guests of the “host” community in her “own” region! If this is what you have understood, then you have definitely gotten it all wrong! If this I what you want, then we can offer you an agreed complete partition, once you withdraw to only the 18% of the country, which corresponds with your population and property ownership (this was even smaller that 18%) ratio as a community, vs. the total! The choice is yours!

[Viewpoint]

Sorry VP, but accepting that each of the states will have a majority of Cypriot permanet residents originating from each one of the two communities respectively, does not equate with it being regarded as the “ownership" region of each of these two communities, nor that it should be exclusively governed by this community, alone, and the rest of Cypriots originating from the other community, will be regarded as the tax-paying guests of the “host” community in her “own” region! If this is what you have understood, then you have definitely gotten it all wrong! If this I what you want, then we can offer you an agreed complete partition, once you withdraw to only the 18% of the country, which corresponds with your population and property ownership (this was even smaller that 18%) ratio as a community, vs. the total! The choice is yours!

Kifeas now you are being bloody minded as you know full well that the "ownership" of a united Cyprus will be its people, taxes will pooled and used to meet the needs of both states, the only difference will be the administrative body in each state one GC the other TC. You appear uncomfortable that the TCs will be given what the GCs only see fit for themselves "power" at local level. You really have to accept us as equals and only then will you understand the basis for sharing. You obviously have difficulties accepting therefore supporting a BBF, could you tell us exactly your version of what you see our role will be in your BBF solution as envisaged by yourself.

If you offered me personally a total division after an independent board confirmed the % I would accept because I am right in thinking that GCs cannot and will never compromise as they do not want to share, you are a prime example of this fact, your version of sharing equally is when GC are in total control.

[Kikapu]

Sorry VP, but accepting that each of the states will have a majority of Cypriot permanet residents originating from each one of the two communities respectively, does not equate with it being regarded as the “ownership" region of each of these two communities, nor that it should be exclusively governed by this community, alone, and the rest of Cypriots originating from the other community, will be regarded as the tax-paying guests of the “host” community in her “own” region! If this is what you have understood, then you have definitely gotten it all wrong! If this I what you want, then we can offer you an agreed complete partition, once you withdraw to only the 18% of the country, which corresponds with your population and property ownership (this was even smaller that 18%) ratio as a community, vs. the total! The choice is yours!

Kifeas now you are being bloody minded as you know full well that the "ownership" of a united Cyprus will be its people, taxes will pooled and used to meet the needs of both states, the only difference will be the administrative body in each state one GC the other TC. You appear uncomfortable that the TCs will be given what the GCs only see fit for themselves "power" at local level. You really have to accept us as equals and only then will you understand the basis for sharing. You obviously have difficulties accepting therefore supporting a BBF, could you tell us exactly your version of what you see our role will be in your BBF solution as envisaged by yourself.

If you offered me personally a total division after an independent board confirmed the % I would accept because I am right in thinking that GCs cannot and will never compromise as they do not want to share, you are a prime example of this fact, your version of sharing equally is when GC are in total control.

VP, why don't you give up on the ignorance attitude as to what your version of BBF means from what a True federation is. I and Kifeas have given you many times the definition and yet you act like you have never heard of a True federation before. But it's not your fault to have been brain washed by your leaders, therefore I'll tell it to you one more time, just because I like you.!!!!

In a True Federation with 2 states and a strong central government, Cypriots of all ethnicity will be able to live and work where ever they wish. All those living in one of the two states will be able to vote to any local government political seats as well as for the countries governing body, because where the people live and they pay their taxes, is where they will vote. No one ethnic community owns that state. It is owned by all those who choose to live there. You cannot make the claim that the north will be a Turkish Cypriot state, therefore, you will want to run your state the way you want to. No mister, you will run the North on how the citizens of the North will want to run their state within the guidelines of the Federal Laws. You know what those laws are, so no point repeating them.

The south may run their the same way, but may also have slightly different results, just like we have in California and Florida. The important thing is, we have a True Democracy where the North and South are 2 states belonging to all Cypriots in a country called "United States of Cyprus". Just like California and Florida are just two states in the country of Unites States of America. Each state are run by their own citizens without discrimination or Racist and undemocratic methods. Federal government will mostly run the foreign affairs as well as national domestic issues as well as be the guardian of the constitution so that the 2 states does not violate it with their own state constitution.

Now compare this with your version of BBF and tell us what the differences are.

[Nikitas]

It is not just VP who gets it wrong, Talat also has said at times that allowing refugees to return to their properties annuls the meaning of bizonality and biregionality, in other words he wants a separation along race lines. Gul said as much when he emphasised the differences of language, religion etc. This line wil be held to the very end, no doubt with understanding shown by the EU nations who otherwise uphold the values of multi cultural societies.Iguess there must be a difference between being multi and being bi.