Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

And there lies the problem!

Then why all the continued and constant arguments that equality of the two communites is unfair, undemocratic etc etc etc.?

All systems in the past that tried to add an 'ethnic' component to politics have ended in disaster - Germany and fascism, South Africa and apartheid.

The whole concept of nation states is based on ethnicitiy. I can easily argue that all attempts to deny ethnicity within a nation state have led to disaster as well. How many countries today are still struggling with issues of ethnicity within a nation state. I can think of many all round the world.

I am very sorry erol, but I do feel that the ideals of the TC's smack of a bit of both of the above. Do you see why so many GC's are so against what you think? There is a perfectly good way of mitigating these things by having a system of weighted voting as I described in a previous post.

The whole of Cyprus' history as a sovreign nation has been defined and dominated by issues of ethnicity. GC persued ethnic based objectives as did TC. This is just historical fact and does not go away by saying that it should not be this way. We are in this mess today because of the different desires of the two main ethnic communites in Cyprus. To say a solution can only be found to this problem (caused and based on ethnicity) by pretending ethnicity is not relevant or ethnic divisions and different desire of the ethnic groups in Cyprus do not matter is to me madness.
I can see why many GC who actualy want the GC community to be free to run Cyprus as they want without having to consider the desires of TC at all often present this desire as being one of wanting and end to 'racial and ethnic divisions' in Cyprus. They talk the talk of anti racist/ethnic based structures and polices but they walk the walk of a Cyprus dominated and controlled by a single ethnic group - namely GC.

I want an ultimate goal of a Cyprus where ethnicity beyond Cypriot does not matter. I do not think given the history of Cyprus to date that can be achieved by granting effective unrestrained control to a single ethnic group in Cyprus. For me first we have to work togeather in a framework of ethnic differences - because that is where we are today (and historically) in the hope and with the desire that over time these differences melt away and thus the need for ethnic based sepeartions also disapear. We can not build a sinlge Cypriot nation and identity by giving effective unlimited control to one community alone. We first have to work togeather accepting the reality of the two ethnic communites.

To be honest I do not understand 'weighted voting'. I will do my best to try and understand this. If it can solve the probelms in Cyprus then I welcome it

[erolz]

I do not understand what you mean. The two Communities is one set of entities, the Constituent states is a different set of entities. The TC constituent state will not be equal to the TC community.

No not equal but the interests of the TC community will be safguarded by the TCCS.

What matters to the TC community is that we are not at the mercy of the GC community as far as the future of our own (shared) homeland goes. If there is a federation of equal component states and one of these states is guaranteed to be numericaly controlled by TC then this component state can protect the needs of all TC in Cyprus - wehter they live in the TCCS or the GCCS.

[Kifeas]

No not equal but the interests of the TC community will be safguarded by the TCCS.

What matters to the TC community is that we are not at the mercy of the GC community as far as the future of our own (shared) homeland goes. If there is a federation of equal component states and one of these states is guaranteed to be numericaly controlled by TC then this component state can protect the needs of all TC in Cyprus - wehter they live in the TCCS or the GCCS.

Therefore we agree that the two constituent states (one with majority TCs and the other with majority GCs) will constitute the federal government and the federal senate and they should both (TCCS and GCCS) be equal between them.

Do you feel it is a fair deal?
Do you agree with this arrangement?

[erolz]

Therefore we agree that the two constituent states (one with majority TCs and the other with majority GCs) will constitute the federal government and the federal senate and they should both (TCCS and GCCS) be equal between them.

Do you feel it is a fair deal?
Do you agree with this arrangement?

Sounds ok to me.

[Kifeas]

Therefore we agree that the two constituent states (one with majority TCs and the other with majority GCs) will constitute the federal government and the federal senate and they should both (TCCS and GCCS) be equal between them.

Do you feel it is a fair deal?
Do you agree with this arrangement?

Sounds ok to me.

So then you accept political equality not on the basis of ethnicity but on the basis of Constituent state citizenship, which is partially based on ethnicity.

If you remember we agreed that the TCCS is not = to the TC community
And also that the GCCS is not = to the GC community.


This is what I wrote earlier.

The TCCS will be equal with the majority of the TC community (perhaps 99%) plus the percentage of the GCs that will be allowed to obtain the TCCS internal citizenship.

On the other hand the GCCS will be equal with the GC community minus those that will move into the TCCS, plus perhaps the remaining amount of the TC community that will choose to move into the GCCS and obtain its internal citizenship.

With this arrangement, the TC community will always be the majority of the TC constituent state and will have the control, but the two terms are not equal. (i.e. TC community = TCCS)

If you agree with this then I also agree with it and thus we solved 90% of the problem

[metecyp]

If you remember we agreed that the TCCS is not = to the TC community
And also that the GCCS is not = to the GC community.

This is misleading. You're right that TCCS is not equal to the TC community because there will be GCs coming to settle in the TCCS but GCCS is the GC community because there will be so few TCs compared to GCs living in the GCCS that it won't matter.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas wrote:

If you remember we agreed that the TCCS is not = to the TC community
And also that the GCCS is not = to the GC community.

This is misleading. You're right that TCCS is not equal to the TC community because there will be GCs coming to settle in the TCCS but GCCS is the GC community because there will be so few TCs compared to GCs living in the GCCS that it won't matter.

Why and what is misleading??
Few or many, by definition the GCCS will not be the same as the GC community. GC will live within the TCCS and some TCs will live in the GCCS. If you read all my previous posts in this thread, this is what I kept saying. Why do you accuse me for missleading???

[erolz]

So then you accept political equality not on the basis of ethnicity but on the basis of Constituent state citizenship, which is partially based on ethnicity.

What matters to me is can the GC community force something on the TC community aginst the will of the TC community (like ENOSIS to take and exterem example). As long as there is a component state with equal status to other component states that is numericaly dominatated by TC this 'concern' is met - at least as far as I am concerned.

If you agree with this then I also agree with it and thus we solved 90% of the problem

Hmmmm. So property issues and settler issues are less than 10% of the problem then? Seems a bit optimistic to me.

[turkcyp]

Relax Metecyp, I am not in the business of cheating you.

EOKA was between 1955 and 1959
EOKA B was between 1971 and 1974 and it’s aim was to assassinate Makarios in order to capture the power of GC community and proceed with enosis, with the backing of the Greek military junta which came in power from 1967 until 1974 upon the support of CIA

In 1964 in Kokkina it was the National Guard under the command of Grivas which attacked the enclave of Kokkina. If you remember the Kokkina and the surrounding TC villages formed an enclave on the seaside and they used it as a port to download weapons coming from Turkey for the use of TMT. Grivas was given at that time the command of the newly formed National Guard and decided this attack without the approval of Makarios and the mainland Greek government. Actually Grivas deceived Makarios and the Greek government before taking this action. During this period (July –August 1964) the Atchenson plan was under consideration and both Makarios and the Greek government didn’t wish any violent activities.

The same goes for the attack in Kofinou in 1967. It was the National Guard under the command of Grivas. If you do not know were Kofinou is, it is situated on the main Lefkosia –Limassol road. Nearby there was a TC village called Ayios Theodoros. Some TC irregulars or perhaps under the orders of TMT, occupied a hill next to the main road and set up some machine guns. From there they were randomly firing cars, especially police and army vehicles that were using the main road from/to Limassol /Lefkosia. Grivas send a disproportionate force to neutralise this TC post on the hill. The end result was that not only the hill was neutralised but also Grivas (despite the initial Makarios orders) proceeded into the Ayios Theodoros village and killed several other TC militias and arrested also some TC civilians. Upon this event, Makarios order the withdrawal of the Greek division that secretly arrived in Cyprus during the previous years and asked for Grivas removal from the command of the National Guard and his deportation back to mainland Greece. He also reduced the service period of the National Guard. It was from this point and on that Makarios became the enemy of Grivas and consequently he (Grivas) returned back in 1970 and organised the EOKA B in order to exterminate Makarios on the justification that Makarios was not favouring enosis ant linger and that he should be removed from the leadership of the GC community and the presidency of RoC.

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WOW....

[turkcyp]

What matters to me is can the GC community force something on the TC community aginst the will of the TC community (like ENOSIS to take and exterem example). As long as there is a component state with equal status to other component states that is numericaly dominatated by TC this 'concern' is met - at least as far as I am concerned.

Actually Erol,

This is not that easy as you say. AS you know in federations federal goverment always has a say over constituent states. What you are suggesting lack the protection mechanims for TCs in the federal level. Therefore laws can be set at the federal level that goes against the majority of TCs wishes.

The way Kifeas is proposing his federal state is that every citizen of any constituent state has all the equal rights regardless of their ethnicity. Let' say that there are 20% GCs in TCCS state. And these people chooise 1/5 of TCCS state federal senators and MPs. Afther this point it would be very easy for the federal senate to pass a law that would be againts the majority of TCs wishes and desires.

The only way to solve this is to be able to give to seperate kinds of residency rights (or state citizenship rights if you will) to each state resident, bestowing two seperate rights to people. So that at the community level (not at the state level) majority of TCs wishes are taken and satisfied as well just like the majority of GCs wishes.

What Kifeas is proposing a bizonal federation without any community equlaity at the federal level.