Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Of course it is easy to make a judgement after 50 years. However, this is not the point. I am considering the judgment made by various people or organisations at the time, such as Papagos P.M. of Greece, AKEL, Spiridakis who was a historian and many others who disagreed with the arm struggle. They did not have the benefit of hindsight but were visionary people who could see ahead. At the time, they were all labelled traitors.

It is also not true that the Brits were dead against giving independence to Cyprus. They tried twice in the 40's to bring the Cypriots to the negotiating table. First in 1944 with Sir Cosmo Parkinson, but AKEL wanted enosis and only enosis, because they sensed a victory of the communists in Greece. Then, in 1947 AKEL went willingly to the Constitutional Assembly but this time the ethnarchy said a loud "no" and the effort failed just after starting.

You talk about the mediterranean spirit; Let me take you only as far as Gibraltar, where a much bigger and stronger country, Spain, is challenging legally the brits for the rock. Have they ever contemplated with the idea of starting a war for Gibraltar? What about the Chinese, did they have to wait for 1999 to get back Hong Kong?

Excuses can always be found to hide our political immaturity. Of course in real life mistakes are paid for, sooner or later. We are paying for our mistakes right now, but it appears we have not settled the bill yet.

[brother]

We should tread careful with this one as many people have known members of EOKA and TMT and they can confirm these people were not evil murderers but just poor brainwashed souls who probably never commited any crimes whatsoever apart from being members of an organisation.
The few that did commit atrocities is known by many of us and they will pay for their crimes eventually but lets not sacrifice all of them as some deserve respect.

My father recently told me of an EOKA member(i will not give his name so do not ask for it) that in 1974 when the murderers came to his village he and his men stood firm and refused to allow any TC to be taken or hurt and ensured their protection uttering the immortal words, "these are our friends, neighbours and country men we will not allow them to be harmed and this is not what EOKA is about"
This man and his men deserve respect.

[Piratis]

Bananiot, you come 50 years after to pretend the wise one. How old have you been 50 years ago?

History took a specific course, and now saying that if instead of choosing route A we choose route B then everything would be great is just a theory.

It might have been better, or it might have been worst, nobody would ever know.

You can have your theory that another rout would be better, and personally I believe the same. However this is one thing, and a whole another thing to say that the heroes that gave their lives for a noble cause are criminals and worthless and that you would prefer if Cyprus even today was a British colony!!

If in 1955 somebody believed that EOKA was wrong and he didn't participate, thats fine, no problem. However if he helped the British in the war against EOKA then he was a traitor.

The same way today, you are perfectly free to disagree with what the majority decided. However if you help our enemies to achieve their aims against the will of the majority, again you are a traitor.

In a few words, in democracy you are free to express your opinion and try to convince your compatriots about what is the right thing to do. Then the citizens go to elections/referendum etc and vote.

If what you supported gained the majority, then you can move ahead with your proposals. If it did not, then you can keep your ideas, but you cannot force them on everybody else.

What you do today is to help our enemies to force on us what we democratically said we reject. This is treason.

[metecyp]

Ok, I don't trust you either. So what? Is this an excuse for stealing your property?

So I don't trust you, you don't trust me and on top of that, you don't feel the need to do anything to gain my trust. Why would I care to live with you then? Why would I care about your losses, your wishes...if you're not going to care about mine? Trust is a crucial element of a solution and without it, there's no solution.

In a few words, in democracy you are free to express your opinion and try to convince your compatriots about what is the right thing to do. Then the citizens go to elections/referendum etc and vote.

Isn't this what Bananiot is doing? Expressing his opinion?

What you do today is to help our enemies to force on us what we democratically said we reject. This is treason.

Please explain how he helps your enemies to force on something that the majority rejects...

[Main_Source]

All I have to say on this is Bananiot seems pro-British on many aspects...so he is always going to portray negative views toward things that are anti-British in one way or another. He seems to think that there is no racism in Britain and that Greek Cypriots never received racist discrimination when the first influxes of immigrants came over to the UK.

[cannedmoose]

All I have to say on this is Bananiot seems pro-British on many aspects...so he is always going to portray negative views toward things that are anti-British in one way or another. He seems to think that there is no racism in Britain and that Greek Cypriots never received racist discrimination when the first influxes of immigrants came over to the UK.

Any influx of immigrants causes tension in any country source... look at the reaction to the Irish immigration of the 19th and 20th centuries. At first there were signs like 'No dogs, no women, no Irish'. The difference is that today, you would never see such a sign on display. In the Cypriot case, the closest example might be the Pontian Greeks who, from what I understand, have been subjected to similar treatment by their GC brethren. Suspicion and fear are the first instinctual reaction to anything new and different. I don't apologise for the reaction of 1950s and 1960s Britons because that was a particular moment in time and an understandable response. However, if anyone felt that today, I would label them as an idiot. In my experience mixing with GCs in North London, there is no discrimination towards them any longer, especially since in places like Wood Greek (sorry, Wood Green), GCs are the norm amongst the population, not the exception.

[Main_Source]

Brother...can you post that quote about the few 'good' men of EOKA again, so we can hear what Insan, Bananiot and Viewpoint have to say please.

[Bananiot]

Bananiot is not pro-british nor is he anti-british. Bananiot is pro rational and since there is nothing better invented for rational thought, then, I will stick with this and persevere any criticism of the type “you are a traitor” which I take it lightly, I assure you. In fact I am beginning to like it, call me masochist if you must, but I would like to point out to my friend Piratis that one man’s hero is another mans demeanour (someone said this long before me) and heroes exist everywhere but a confirmed anti hero like me has no time for them. In the same contest of course, Turkish heroes fought and died against the Greek occupation of Asia Minor in 1919 and if you do not believe me read the books of Dido Soteriou, who actually pays homage to these heroes.

[brother]

We should tread careful with this one as many people have known members of EOKA and TMT and they can confirm these people were not evil murderers but just poor brainwashed souls who probably never commited any crimes whatsoever apart from being members of an organisation.
The few that did commit atrocities is known by many of us and they will pay for their crimes eventually but lets not sacrifice all of them as some deserve respect.

My father recently told me of an EOKA member(i will not give his name so do not ask for it) that in 1974 when the murderers came to his village he and his men stood firm and refused to allow any TC to be taken or hurt and ensured their protection uttering the immortal words, "these are our friends, neighbours and country men we will not allow them to be harmed and this is not what EOKA is about"
This man and his men deserve respect.



There are many true stories like this on both sides, so lets look for the good that everyone is not aware of instead of walking that tired old line of all the bad that was done.

[erolz]

Bananiot, you condemn the whole organization because of the actions of few.

An organisation can be as justly condemed as an indivdual. EOKA was an organisation that chose to use violence to achieve political goals. That was it's very basis and I condem it for such. The idea that EOKA was general a 'good' organisation with a few 'bad apples' is a gross perversion of the reality in my humble view.

First of all there is the deference between EOKA and EOKA B.

Yes there are differences and then there are the similarites. Same name (ish), same leader, same objective (ENOSIS), same means (violence and terror).

Secondly, the cause of EOKA was a noble one, and your generalizations are disrespect to those young people that gave their lives for the freedom of this island from the colonialists.

The cause of self determination is a noble cause. The cause to end colonialism is a noble cause. The cause to unite the whole of Cyprus and all it's communites with the Greek nation was in my humble opinion no more noble from 50-60 than it was in 74. EOKA's cause was ENOSIS. You can try and claim this is not the case but the fact is that EOKAs cause was enosis and only enosis. It was also the cause of EOKA B.

If you were pro colonialist and the liberation of Cyprus hurt your personal interests this is something you have to deal by yourself. We are not here to support the interests of a small pro colonialist group. (I will refrain from giving any adjective to people that belong to such group since it is clear anyways).

Being anti EOKA does not mean being pro colonialist. That would be true even if EOKA's cause had been to end colonialism (which is was not it was to replace one form of colonilaism with another). If continued British rule meant today that the thousands of innocents who have lost their lives since Cyprus' independance, and 10 and even 100,000 of others who have suffered did not experience this, then I think yes continued colonialism would have been a 'less disaterous' result for Cypriots and Cyrus.

That said, there were criminal persons inside EOKA, including its leader. And the crimes committed against innocents (=not the colonialists or the ones supporting them, but people that were killed because of their race or ideology) are condemned.

Shooting non combatant women (wives of colonialist servicemen, some pregnant) was a valid way to gain enosis (or even end colonialism) in your view then?

The ones that did the crimes, like Grivas, deserve no respect. But this is not the same with people like Gregoris Afxentiou and others like him. The EOKA cause was supported by the great majority of GCs in one way or another. It was a noble cause for liberation, and we will not allow to the small group of pro-colonialists to make such kind of generalizations that put mud on everybody that supported the cause of EOKA.

EOKA's cause was for ENOSIS. You can call this a noble cause fpor liberation but actually it was a cause that simply sought to replace colonial rulership from the UK to Greece. It is true that the EOKA cause (ENOSIS) was supported by the great majority of GC _then_. However by 74 this cause was no longer supported by such a majority of GC and indeed GC were killing GC over this difference.

My personal views

ENOSIS, as a political goal, was a mistake by the GC community in Cyprus. It caused new and intensified existing hostility between the two communites in Cyprus. It was 'ideologicaly' motivated (mengali idea) and was not based on what was best for Cyriots in general or even GC. It was politicaly nieve as a goal (independance would have been a much easier goal to achieve). It was based on ideas of race.

EOKA, as an organisation was an illegal terrorist group that used illegal and terroist meathods to gain political objectives. It was headed by a brutal right wing facist and was lead by similar minded people. The 'troops' may well have included 'ordinary' GC - but really they should have known better. As an orgnisation it was ruthless, brutal and facist in it's ideology and structure. It used violence and the fear of violence as a way of gsining it's aims.

Finally as a thought experiment. Imagine a world from 1950 onwards with no EOKA. Do you think Cyprus would still be under British rule if there had been no EOKA? Do you think Cyprus would be divded today if there had been no EOKA? How many _totaly innocent_ people would have had how many more years of life if there had been no EOKA?

Or to put it another way, what single positive legacy has EOKA left Cyprus and the Cypriot people, that Cyprus could not and would not have gained anyway without the 'brave noble EOKA fighters' (killers and murders)? I can think of none myself - but maybe I have missed something?