Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Papapetrou is older than me by 4-5 years and in 1963 I was only 13 so it would have been highly improbable for me to be drafted into serving the Akritas Plan. To say that 17 or 18 year old AKEL sympathisers or even members could not have been drafted is very speculative and shows no respect of history, given that some were drafted to execute the coup in 1974 which had the extreme right behind it and not the so called centre.

So, is it something to lie about? The people that were drafted did not embark on individual practice but I believe it was a team event. It has already been 2 weeks since Papapetrou made the claim and until now not a single soul came forward to dispute it.

Do I stand of being accused of calling you a thick headed skull with fascist mentality who wears blinkers? I must admit it did cross my mind but then at whom should the accusation be directed at? Dr Jenkyl or Mr Hyde?

[erolz]

Erol I will try to make my replies short.

As will I

1)Resolutions are meaningless if made by a body whose job is not to issue resolutions.

That is your view it is not mine.

2)I said that the Enosis idea was NOT the goal for the majority of the population.

If that was true then they did nothing to convince the world of that in 1960 and I remain as unconvinced of that as the world was in 1960.

I said after 1960 it started fainting even among those to whom it was a primary goal.

Quite possibly so, but the fact was a community your elected political leaders continued to persu it via various means imo.

And after 1967 Makarios abandoned it.

I think this is true, despite his statments to the contrary - as clearly did EOKA B and extreme ENOSIS supporters.

Obviously I don't agree with Mainsource that the abandoning of the Enosis idea-from those who had it as primary target- just happened overnight in 1960.

Which was the point I was trying to make when you joined in the discussion

3)Regarding declaration of Enosis in the 60s you missed my big IF . And yes IF all the GCs wanted it they would even risk a war.

Even if they beleived they could achieve it, without having to fight Turkey?

4)The UN may not make a hierachy among the human rights (for obvious reasons) but if you tell me the human right for life is equal to the human right for education then I tell you a dead person cannot read books, so you are missing the obvious hierachy.

So the right to life has precedence over the other human rights - maybe I can accept this. However you have introduced a hierachy between indivdual rights and the rights of peoples. Where is the 'obvious hierachy' here?

5)How about your human right for life in case someone holds a gun and is ready to shoot you? Can you still insist you have no right to kill before he kills you?

You have no right to kill. You have a right to self defense. In order to defend yourself you can kill and that killing can be deemed justifed (as it can be deemed unjustifed depending on the circumstances) but it is never your right to kill.

6)The options TCs had from 1963 onwards were to stick to their positions in the Government,

even though there was a very real riesk of being killed by doing so?

disolve the TMT

even though innocent TC were being killed by 'irregular' GC forces - like my uncle was?

and go to the UN to get a resolution- just to name a few. Did they ever do any of these?

The RoC (under sole GC control) did go to the UN - as GC hoped it would block Turkish action whilst the continued to oppress TC community. At that time Denktash was only allowed to make a statement (after much prerssure and against the resistance of the RoC and Greece) as an 'indivdual' and not as a representative of the TC community. At the end of the day it seems to me you defend the right of GC to use violence in 50's onward to secure their rights but deny TC that right in the 60's to defend theirs. That to me seems a little one sided.

7)The multiregional Federation assumes that any area that is not claimed to be TC Fed is GC Fed area. The end result will be many areas that will form the TC Multi regional Fed. The example you gave of 3 to 1 villages is an exceptional case but still can be dealt with in the same manner.

Sorry I still do not see this as a viable solution.

So we agree on the matter of Vetos for decisions that can affect each community negatively.This of course must apply in case the solution is Federal.The GCCS can veto the decisions of the TCCS through the common state.

Good - and of course I ask for and epect no right of the TC community as a community that I do not also grant ot the GC community equally.

9)There is no party in the world as big as that of Eroglu concentrating such proportions of ex-militants and property suckers.If you know one name it. I told you before don't try to equalise what happens at the pseudo with overgeneral statements and vague percentages.

Opinion. It still seems to me what you are really arguing is similar to Piratis view - that there has been no solution to the Cyprus problem because 'many' TC are just greedy and want to profit from that which is not thiers. I can accept this is a factor but deny totaly that it is the overidding factor or that 'many' TC take this appraoch.

11)You forget that embargo means restriction on legal trade.The trade you are asking for is not legal on the first place, it's trade of stolen goods.So there is no embargo.There is restriction to trade stolen goods, as there will always be all over the world.

If what you said was the case then we would be allowed to export goods produced on TC owned land prior to 74 and we can not. The EU embargoes are NOT based on the legality of the goods being produced from former GC land but on the legtimacy (or lack of it) of the TRNC as an entity. Your insistance that they are no embargoes seems to be just sophistry to me. You can argue that the reason for the emabrgoes are correct and they are justifed and you can argue that they are not - but to argue that there are no emabrgoes seems bizzare to me.

12)The idea of exchanging equal to equal properties and after that have a balance or near balance is a myth! We will not have a balance! All we will settle is 1/20th of the value of properties.

There is no way the TC could exchange 'fairly'? What about if we gave back 98% of the land we currently controlled to GC control? WOuld than not just be an equal exchange but actually one in favour of GC?

13)And for me the idea that without Eoka there was NO chance that until today we would be governed by the British is equally ridiculous.Sorry.

You REALLY believe that? Compared with the number of colonies around the world in the 1950's - how many of those have today failed to end colonialism?

14)It is still my opinion that after 1967 Makarios started abandoning the idea for Enosis. According to Insan he was forced to abandon it after 1967. If my information was not convincing to you then please refer to Insan.The fact is that nothing happened in PRACTICE after 1967 to subtantiate the argument that Makarios was working for Enosis.If you insist give me your list of events.

My 'argument' was with main sources assertion, regarding Makarios abandoning ENOSIS in 1960. I agree that after 67 he had abandonded the idea. What happened in pratice is that the EOKA B extermeist also took the view that Makraios had abandonded ENOSIS and started to plot to kill him and seize control of Cyprus.

15)In the next 2 paragraphs you included statements that are not even mine, what am I supposed to reply?Please next time write the name of the one to whom you are replying. (In case your reply is addressed to more than one person of course)

Errr you asked me explicitly to 'quote' what is was that main source had said that I was trying to refute. I did this saying explicitly that the below quotes were main sources. Was it not totaly clear whose quotes those were? I made them at your request. I said whose they were.

[MicAtCyp]

Do I stand of being accused of calling you a thick headed skull with fascist mentality who wears blinkers? I must admit it did cross my mind but then at whom should the accusation be directed at? Dr Jenkyl or Mr Hyde?

To Bananidiot

[MicAtCyp]

Is that a short reply re Erol?
Anyway I will read it later and see if I have something to say.

[MicAtCyp]

. To say that 17 or 18 year old AKEL sympathisers or even members could not have been drafted is very speculative and shows no respect of history,....The people that were drafted did not embark on individual practice but I believe it was a team event. It has already been 2 weeks since Papapetrou made the claim and until now not a single soul came forward to dispute it.

What are you talking about you messed up rhetor, who more often that not gets lost in his own rhetoric?Perhaps you did not read carefully what Papapetrou said. He said ALL teenagers.

By the way next time remind me to tell Papadopoulos to assign some persons the job of answering the lunatics of this society. For you specifically I will tell him to hire a person with many many assistants.

[MicAtCyp]

Erol, I will stick to REALLY short answers:

1)About the elected leaders.Makarios was getting 90+%.Not even the leaders of the USSR were getting such a high percentage. There was no democracy, there were no real political parties, everything was at an infant stage and everything was a mess.Hence the oppression on the TCs.
2)I don't know which was the case you refer when RoC went to the UN. Thus I don't know the reasons why Denktash was only allowed to make a statement. It's upto you to tell me what the TC community should do. I gave you some advices which infortunately you simply...rushed to discard. I can even advice you that if it was totally impossible for the TC community to do anything then Turkey should file a case for them in the UN, but I am sure you will discard that too simply to validate your argument that there was nothing you could do!
3)And you think a solution that needs to steal peoples properties to have a homogeneous single area Fed state, is more viable?
4)

Good - and of course I ask for and epect no right of the TC community as a community that I do not also grant ot the GC community equally.

Equality in what????
5)I repeat: There are no embargos. A car thief cannot sell the house he legally owns, while he continues stealing cars and has 100 warrants against him.That's not an embargo! I hope you understand your REAL problem.
6)I repeat. Value wise the TCs left behind 1/20 of the properties they got whereas area wise they left behind 1/3. Make your calculations and come back with a sensible answer.
To help you more heres a copy of an old post of mine. I have nothing to hide!!!

Area wise the TCs left behind 473,309 scales whereas they got 1,460,643 scales GC land and they them selves owed 379,146 scales in the occupied area.
Value wise the TCs left behind 1/20th of what (GC properties) they got in the occupied areas

Notice the value calculations are based on the fact that the TC properties in the free areas in 1974 were on the average 206 Cyp/scala the GC ones 663 Cyp/scala whereas the value of TC lands at the occupied areas were 519 Cyp/scala and the GC ones 1346 Cyp/scala

***********************************************

Insan is not Insane, he has applied for a position in Talat's new "government"! He is simply trying to improve his "credentials".

And I was thinking what the hell was going on, what the hell, what the hell.....Yia sou re Panteli. This explains it all....

PS. "yia sou" sometimes means congratulations.

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp you sound like an old broken record, land land land land land and more land, most TCs dont have a problem with returning property where it is practicably possible if the actual property cannot be returned then an alternative can be worked out. Material issues are easier than the mental mistrust TCs feel for GCs and any administration that they would have to participate in. How will you overcome this issue???? if you could resolve this I feel that the remianing issues would be solved much more easily but your constant crying of land land land land is really making us all sick, and gives us the impression you wish to return and swamp the north, anialating the TC community both politically and from the face of a United Cyprus.

What the hell do you expect us to do disolve the TRNC overnight, give back everything, kick the troops and settlers out in 24 hours and beg on the door step of the ho so squeeky clean Greek Cypriot RoC.
Wake up man this is not going to happen, so admit what you really sense inside that this mess cannot be undone and that recognised partition will happen only a matter of time, which we happen to have a lot of

[erolz]

1)About the elected leaders.Makarios was getting 90+%.Not even the leaders of the USSR were getting such a high percentage. There was no democracy, there were no real political parties, everything was at an infant stage and everything was a mess.Hence the oppression on the TCs.

So there was no widespread support amongst GC for ENOSIS but they gave 90%+ support to someone claiming to be for ENOSIS and only ENOSIS. So the people supported Makarios but not his aims?
Hence the oppresion on the TC ??? You are saying that GC did not really want to oppress TC but they did so because everything was a mess? Talk about excusing attrocities!

2)I don't know which was the case you refer when RoC went to the UN. Thus I don't know the reasons why Denktash was only allowed to make a statement.

In Dec 63 large scale violence broke out between the two communites. Turkey made it clear that they would not tollerate this indefinately. Rest of the world wanted to avoid Turkey and Greece both NATO members entering a conflict. A NATO force was suggested to stop the two communites killing each other. The all GC RoC government refused NATO troops. They did invite British troops to help, but when it became clear that these troops were going to stop GC from oppressing TC and not aid them (the 'legitiamte' forces of the state - controlled only by GC, putting down an armed insurrection fo TC - so the propaganda goes) they then sought UN troops. Surely they would have prefered no interferance in their oppression of the TC community at all but the most important thing was to block Turkish action (all this is laid out in Akritas plan btw) whilst they oppressed the TC community. So they went to the UN to get a resolution that would block Turkey from intervening whilst they oppressed the TC community with the added benefit of de facto recognition of the solely GC run adminstration (thus illegal / unconsitutional adminstration) as the legitimate government of all of Cyprus. This is what happened. For 11 years the illegal GC adminstration continued to persecute the TC community - protected from Turkish action by the UN forces.

It's upto you to tell me what the TC community should do. I gave you some advices which infortunately you simply...rushed to discard. I can even advice you that if it was totally impossible for the TC community to do anything then Turkey should file a case for them in the UN, but I am sure you will discard that too simply to validate your argument that there was nothing you could do!

I do not say that the TC community had no option but violence (in response to viloence) in 63 to protect their rights - though I do think a strong cas can be made that this was so. What I actually dispute is your idea / assertion that GC had no choice but to resort to terrorism and violence to gain their rights but that TC did have many choices other than a resort to violence in 63 to gain / maintain their rights. As I clearly said before I do not think either side was justifed in using violence but what I find a totaly biased and one sided view is that GC had no other choice in 50 onwards by TC did from 63 onwards.

3)And you think a solution that needs to steal peoples properties to have a homogeneous single area Fed state, is more viable?

I have always said and made clear that for me bi zonality is not a 'must have' for TC. Political eqality in some form is. Bi zonality is not.

Equality in what????

My comments were in repsonse to your statement

This of course must apply in case the solution is Federal.The GCCS can veto the decisions of the TCCS through the common state.

Like I said before I _believe_ in the concept of the equality of communites. I have never asked for or expected anything for the TC community that does not apply equaly to the GC community. Thus if I ask for veto rights for TC community I of course accept these would apply the other way round.

5)I repeat: There are no embargos. A car thief cannot sell the house he legally owns, while he continues stealing cars and has 100 warrants against him.That's not an embargo! I hope you understand your REAL problem.

So a TC that owned a lemon grove in the north pre 74, who can not today sell that produce to the EU is not under an embargo? Like I say this is just all 'sophistry' (and not very good sophistry imo) to justify your claim there are no embargoes against the north as far as I am concerned. There are embargoes against us. They may be justifed or they may not but they exist and are real and are embargoes.

[Bananiot]

An informative article by Loucas Charalambous in yesterda's Sunday Mail

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/

The link does not seem to work, so here is the article:

THE MOST important document there is about the Cyprus problem is the ‘Akritas’ plan. It is incontrovertible testimony as to how the Cyprus problem was created in the form it has had for the last 42 years. Nobody should be allowed to talk about the Cyprus problem if he has not read the ‘Akritas’ plan.

Of course, most Greek Cypriots are completely in the dark about the history of their country’s troubles, something which constantly pushes them into making new mistakes. I would bet my life that among the hundreds of clueless and uneducated characters who appear in the media every day as journalists – supposedly to inform the public – you will not find 10 who would have read this document, which is the key to understanding the Cyprus problem. This bitter truth alone explains why we Greek Cypriots are rooted to a primitive level of politics.

In reality, the Cyprus problem was brought into being by this idiotic and nationally catastrophic plan. A plan, which, in Demetris Christofias’ phraseology, would have been describe as treasonous. It is a glowing monument of political stupidity and irresponsibility. The very same man who had signed the Treaty of Establishment for this state and his ministers, as soon as this state came into being, began plotting its dissolution. And for this purpose they set up an illegal organisation. Only in the minds of a Makarios, a Papadopoulos, a Yiorkadjis, a Kyprianou and a Lyssarides could such paranoid politics have found fertile ground.

The gist of this insane plan is included in the following few lines:

Stage 1: Create of the impression among international public opinion, that the Cyprus issue had not been solved correctly and condemn of the Treaty of Guarantee, “the first target of our attack”.

Stage 2: Seek amendment of negative elements of the agreements by all means. “We can even justify unilateral action.”

Stage 3: “Following the above action, the Treaty of Guarantee (right of interventions) is rendered legally and substantively unenforceable”.

Stage 4: “With Cyprus freed (from the treaties of Alliance and Guarantee) the people would be enabled to express and implement their desire.”

Stage 5: “Lawful confrontation by the forces of the state (police and friendly military troops) of any intervention from within or from outside because then we would be completely independent.”

This plan was not put together by people who had escaped from a mental hospital, as some may think. Its writers made it obvious that they knew very well they were playing with fire. The only parts of the document which are written in block capitals are those informing the recipients that leaking of it was tantamount to “high treason” and urging members of the organisation of their obligation to “destroy by fire”, once it had been read. They were obviously concerned that the Turks might have got wind of it.

This was the great plan, with which Mr Papadopoulos – the deputy chief of Akritas – and his fellow-fighters destroyed the Cyprus Republic, which, as he discovered 40 years later, by his own admission, was a “blessed solution”, even better than joining the EU. The achievement of Papadopoulos’ and his organisation’s national activities was truly impressive.

Within a few days, they had created the enclave between Nicosia and Kyrenia, in which they compressed a large number of the Turkish Cypriots. They laid the foundations of partition. Ten years later, the enclave was used by the Turkish invasion force as a bridgehead for its landing in Cyprus and, expanded by the troops, it evolved in the ‘Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus’.

And now that readers know who had written, in Greek, the pro-Turkish Akritas plan, they should – to use Papadopoulos’ immortal words – “judge for themselves if this helped the Hellenism of Cyprus or our case…”

[MicAtCyp]

So the people supported Makarios but not his aims?

Hello, good morning Erol. Never you heard that there were NO elections in RoC because there were no canditates against Makarios? Never you heard that there was only ONCE, one canditate against Makarios who got only 3%, and that one was actually a Grivas oglani? And by the way, like I said Makarios was slowly shifting away from the Enosis target, so your question of whether the people were supporting Makarios aims to their voting, is actually irrelevant.The one and only time people had the chance to vote, they had to choose between a Grivas oglani, and Makarios. You draw your own conclusions from the result of that voting, and let me hear them.

2)You did not understand what I said (not your fault, actually I should have extended more on this). The oppression on the TCs was because the state itself was not functioning as a true democracy, and did not have the control it ought to have. In addition to the fact that the TCs abandoned the government and the influence that would give them. (Justifiably or not, does not matter as I am trying to describe the situation here).All the paramilitary as well as the TMT were not "state".The National Guard was totally controlled by the Greek Junta and all the TMT and TC fighters by Ankara. Each TC village had a Turkish General in control....That was the situation., and that resulted to opression of the TC people from almost all sides. You name it: state, GC paramilitary,National guard,individual Turk haters, TMT, Generals from Turkey etc etc etc.

3)See what happens with long posts? Your original argument was NOT for 1963 but for 1974! Anyway I don't think I have anything more to say on this "theoretical" matter of rights to use violence.

4)

I have always said and made clear that for me bi zonality is not a 'must have' for TC. Political eqality in some form is. Bi zonality is not.

I am extremely glad for it as I agree. That's Turkcyps position too. I am not sure about the rest of the people in here.

5)We agree on the Veto rights then.Goood.

6)I repeat: there are no embargos.There are restrictions to trade of stolen goods.The degree to which these restrictions are NOT fully applicable, balances out the profit you would make from trading your non stolen lemons. Sorry for calling the situation with its real name, and sorry if it contradicts with what "sophistries" they told you.