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Murdered - or executed as traitors?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:04 pm

(whom?)


This is the 14th page. Apart from a couple of regulars nobody else would dig so far into this thread. (i think)

The 'old' hypothetical issue I raised before about a bill seeking to limit foreign investment from non EU countires is one example.


Erolz, I am not an economist but believe this example is way too hypothetical. Why would Cyprus or any other country for that matter want to limit foreign investments? EU as a whole needs foreign investments. Actually with our EU entry we were hoping that Cyprus could be used as a bridge for business between Europe Asia and Africa.

After unification I believe you will be hard pressed to find any differences between a TC and a GC in anything other than language, culture and religion.

Generally I see this as acceptable.


Well, maybe there is hope then :wink:
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Postby erolz » Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:49 pm

Piratis wrote:Erolz, I am not an economist but believe this example is way too hypothetical. Why would Cyprus or any other country for that matter want to limit foreign investments? EU as a whole needs foreign investments. Actually with our EU entry we were hoping that Cyprus could be used as a bridge for business between Europe Asia and Africa.


Many many countries have limits on foreign investment. There is a balance in wanting to see foreign investment and concerns over control by foregin entites. There is nothing 'hypothetical' about a country imposing such limits. If you really wanted I could show examples around the world where there are such limits. However this is j7ust one hypothetical example. My real point is that with a pre defined list you only have protection against that which you predict in the future. Who knows what other kinds of potential legisaltion might affect the TC community in a significantly materialy different way than the GC community. That is why I have concerns over a pre define list approach.

Piratis wrote:After unification I believe you will be hard pressed to find any differences between a TC and a GC in anything other than language, culture and religion.


I certainly and sincerely hope you are right. However Cyprus' history to date has been one of fundamental and major differences between the wishes and desire of the two communites (and a willingness on both sides to use violence to 'solve' these differences). I can not just forget this reality nor do I think it wise to do so.

Piratis wrote:
Generally I see this as acceptable.


Well, maybe there is hope then :wink:


Despite what you may think my objective for a solution is first and foremost to protect the valid intertest and concerns of the TC community and create a viable framework from which we can go on and build a true unifed Cypriot nation. It is not to legitimise the illegal, or to take what is not mine, or to profit at the expense of GC.
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Postby erolz » Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:56 pm

Kifeas wrote: So you suggest that I waste my time and brain and energy to write all these things down in an as much as possible more analytical way, in order to make a point and convince you on something, and after I finally achieve this, I will turn around and say that I failed to convince you


but Kifeas this is exactly what you did! You explained your position, I agreed that it was acceptable to me and then you claimed I had rejected your proposal. The only question is why you did this.

Kifeas wrote:because you are intransigent, just to make an impression to others (whom?)

Erolz, please!!!
:?


I have never said I know why you did the above. I suggested possible reason. A pure mistake. An active attempt to distort my view. Other possibilites are a subconious desire on your part to believe that TC are unreasonable by nature and reject reasonable proposals. I do not which was the reason why you did as you did. I have said directly that if you tell me it was a simple mistake / misunderstanding I will accept this. However you have not said this but instead tried to explain to me why I should think the only possible explaination for your actions is that of mistake / misunderstanding. If it was a mistake on your part then say so, I will accept it and we can move on.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:10 am

Many many countries have limits on foreign investment. There is a balance in wanting to see foreign investment and concerns over control by foregin entites.


So what is your opinion on the uncontrolled property boom as per the bbc article you posted on another thread?

Most of these properties are being sold to british buyers.

Do you agree with it?
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Postby erolz » Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:15 am

-mikkie2- wrote: So what is your opinion on the uncontrolled property boom as per the bbc article you posted on another thread?

Most of these properties are being sold to british buyers.

Do you agree with it?


I'll answer than in the other thread.
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Postby insan » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:59 am

-mikkie2- wrote:
Many many countries have limits on foreign investment. There is a balance in wanting to see foreign investment and concerns over control by foregin entites.


So what is your opinion on the uncontrolled property boom as per the bbc article you posted on another thread?

Most of these properties are being sold to british buyers.

Do you agree with it?



The only way to stop the property boom in North is lifting of embargos and exchange of properties.
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Postby brother » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:39 am

Tassos offers state help to end Eoka killings row

BY ANDREAS HADJIPAPAS

PRESIDENT Papadopoulos yesterday offered government help in efforts to end the row over the killing of left-wingers during the Eoka campaign, but stressed that this would be an extremely difficult and formidable task.

"There were no minutes kept, no records, no trials conducted with the hearing of evidence," he told reporters.

"Everyone must realise the conditions under which a liberation struggle is conducted, not only in Cyprus but worldwide," he added.

He agreed that people killed after being labelled as traitors or informers, should have their names rehabilitated, and the slur removed from them and their families, if the truth was different.

But this could not be established through scientific research.

"It is something extremely difficult to establish, but this does not mean every effort should not be made in this direction".

It was a political matter, an issue concerning the history of the Eoka struggle. He appealed to anyone who knew "the facts" of each case to come forward and help restore the truth.

Asked how the government would help, once the House decided to take up the issue, Papadopoulos wondered what the House would do - set up a group of historians to write the history of the Eoka campaign?

Papadopoulos was involved in the 1955-59 Eoka campaign against British rule. As head of the Peka political wing in the Nicosia district, he was responsible for issuing statements or evaluating information about those who supported or opposed the underground organisation.

 

Formula

Akel says 23 leftists killed nearly 50 years ago were not informers or collaborators, and demands that the state should clear their names by a "courageous political decision". Akel chief Demetris Christofias, as President of the House, may hold consultations with other political leaders in an attempt to find a formula and then seek the government’s assistance.

Disy is willing to cooperate in this direction, in order to promote reconciliation.

But it wants any probe to be conducted with the participation of the ex-Eoka fighters association and President Papadopoulos himself.

Akel claims the 23 were "murdered" for being communists. Eoka men say they never killed people for their ideology.

Eoka Fighters Association president Thasos Sofocleous says only eight of them were "executed" on Eoka orders for being traitors, the others were accidentally killed in scuffles or by ordinary criminals or after the dissolution of the Eoka organisation.

Christofias raised a new storm at the weekend when, speaking at a memorial service, he seemed to put Eoka on the same footing with the Turkish terrorist group TMT.

He mentioned the names of a number of Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots killed and said: "The names are different. But the ideological identity of the victims is the same. The ideological identity of the assassins is also the same."

He told reporters later: "Chauvinists are the same everywhere, in Cyprus and elsewhere. Chauvinist forces have a common ideological background - this is the message I sent".

In a written statement released later, he tried to play down the issue. His speech was not an attack on Eoka, he argued. "We made no direct reference to Eoka. Our party has repeatedly stressed that we honour Eoka and those who fell during the struggle. But we shall never stop condemning the murders of leftists, no matter who the murderers were".

His remarks brought sharp attacks from Disy, the European Democracy party and Eoka groups.

Formula

Disy leader Nicos Anastassiades deplored Christofias’ statements which he said sought to cast a shadow on the glorious Eoka struggle against colonial rule.

He asked the Akel chief to "apologise to the Cypriot people for choosing as President of the Republic a chauvinist and a common murderer," as he called the Eoka fighters.

Prodromos Prodromou of the European Democracy splinter group, said the Christofias remarks were a "black spot" on the history of Cyprus and asked Christofias to step down as House President. Christos Pourgourides of Disy said it was a "very serious blunder" and Christofias should apologise.

Socialist Edek leader Yannakis Omirou said the controversy created unnecessary tensions in the home front and asked that the issue should be dealt with in a calm atmosphere.

The Eoka campaign was a national liberation anti-colonial struggle, that led to the establishment of the Cyprus Republic. If mistakes occurred, this was natural in any armed struggle, and a formula should be sought to put an end to this issue.


There is no end to it, when will a gc polotician with balls emerge and face this problem head on instead of saying one thing today and deny it the next day and do whats right and show that EOKA was a terrorist organisation with two distinct mentalities, 1- independence from british 2-ENOSIS with no respect for human life and killed tc, gc and brits with no remorse.
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Postby insan » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:44 pm

Akel claims the 23 were "murdered" for being communists. Eoka men say they never killed people for their ideology.
:lol: :lol:

Grivas was a well-known, anti-communist, barbarian monarcho-fascist. Even any of the EOKA men didn't want to kill the GC leftists; they had to execute the orders of Grivas. If Grivas ordered them to kill some GC leftists and some TCs besides the Brits, they had killed those people. I don't think any EOKA men could oppose to the orders of Grivas. Have you ever heard about an internal strife among EOKA men? First of all all EOKA-men(I mean the armed gang) were well trained, right-wing ultra nationalists. That is to say. They had almost the same mentality that Grivas had.

Who were behind the EOKA? GC national front. All of the GC politicians except AKEL were in National Front.


He told reporters later: "Chauvinists are the same everywhere, in Cyprus and elsewhere. Chauvinist forces have a common ideological background - this is the message I sent".



I second this point of view.


The Eoka campaign was a national liberation anti-colonial struggle, that led to the establishment of the Cyprus Republic. If mistakes occurred, this was natural in any armed struggle, and a formula should be sought to put an end to this issue.


Perhaps it was a national liberation, anti-colonial struggle of Greek Cypriot nation but not for Turkish Cypriot nation. Let's see the formula then. I wonder if that formula would satsify TC nation as well... :lol:


There is no end to it, when will a gc polotician with balls emerge and face this problem head on instead of saying one thing today and deny it the next day and do whats right and show that EOKA was a terrorist organisation with two distinct mentalities, 1- independence from british 2-ENOSIS with no respect for human life and killed tc, gc and brits with no remorse.


In 20th century Hellenic ruling elite had never asked independence from British. All they had asked from Brits was annexation of Cyprus with Greece. Furthermore, throughout the first half of the 20th century GC teachers and Greek Orthodox church washed the brains of GCs with irredentism, megali idea and Enosis; not the freedom. Ideologist teachers and church amde most of the GCs slaves of their self-interests.


Even the left-wing GCs did not object Enosis and gave support to Enosis in the plebicite organized by church in 1950. Although left-wing GCs gave support to Enosis; they were strongly against the armed struggle. This is one of the main reason why some GC left wingers killed by Enosist EOKA men.

Logically, a monarcho fascist like Grivas couldn't have been a liberation fighter. Grivas had always served his Hellenic monarcho-dictators. If EOKA men were aware of this, they also served the Hellenic monarcho-dictators; not actually liberation of GC nation. One of the main reason why GC left opposed to Enosis from 1967 and onwards is this.
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Postby Main_Source » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:05 pm

I don't think any EOKA men could oppose to the orders of Grivas. Have you ever heard about an internal strife among EOKA men? First of all all EOKA-men(I mean the armed gang) were well trained, right-wing ultra nationalists. That is to say. They had almost the same mentality that Grivas had.


Typical Insan, he thinks but he doesnt know...that says it all. He distorts facts with the basis of his ideologies to make himself feel better.

Logically, a monarcho fascist like Grivas couldn't have been a liberation fighter. Grivas had always served his Hellenic monarcho-dictators. If EOKA men were aware of this, they also served the Hellenic monarcho-dictators; not actually liberation of GC nation. One of the main reason why GC left opposed to Enosis from 1967 and onwards is this.
There were people in EOKA who simply wanted to oust the British from Cyprus, it did not mean that they were on the same level of nationalism as Grivas but wanted liberation from the British. Like I said before, although my dad was only in his mid teens, he used to help EOKA as did a lot of the Nicosia school children. It doesnt make him a facist at all...but Enosis was a far better option than being under the British rule or waiting for Turkey to invade....Also, you might think im controversial for what i'm going to say but I dont care, because the British used to hang 17 and 18 year old young men, so YES, the British army should have been shot at and killed. They were never going to move from Cyprus and had previously said in the past that they would NEVER grant Cyprus her freedom.

Insan, with your level of thinking....you probably think the Greek revolution was wrong, am I right?
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Postby cannedmoose » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:40 pm

Main_Source wrote:Also, you might think im controversial for what i'm going to say but I dont care, because the British used to hang 17 and 18 year old young men, so YES, the British army should have been shot at and killed. They were never going to move from Cyprus and had previously said in the past that they would NEVER grant Cyprus her freedom.


I don't find your comments controversial, rather I find them ridiculous. The whole trend of history in the mid-1950s through the 60s and 70s was for decolonisation of sizeable colonies. It is a fallacy to say that had EOKA not existed, the British would still be overlords in Cyprus. In the 1950s, the British government was in the early stages of realising that decolonisation was inevitable, hence why statements such as 'we will never leave Cyprus' were made. In contrast, the Wilson Labour administration of the 1960s was anti-colonial and countered many of these statements with real decolonisation action.

Had there been a PEACEFUL movement against British colonial power, the young EOKA fighters who were executed would not have been murdered and there would have been no need to bring in 30,000 troops to hunt down Grivas and his gang, hence the detentions and persecution that resulted from this occupying force would not have taken place.

In Cyprus, it seems that to regard EOKA as anything other than a national liberation movement is treason. I can appreciate the reasoning behind this, but Cyprus can never really have a true appreciation of its history until the crimes committed by these men against not just British soldiers and civilians, but also against their fellow Cypriots are recognised and attoned for. Just look at the hysteria around Christofias' (someone who I'm not traditionally or ideologically fond of) comments. In a modern society, the vitriolic damnation his comments have received is truly unbelievable.

So, I'll state this for the record. Firstly, what Britain did in Cyprus was wrong. We should have put the colony on the path to independence during the late 1940s, preparing Cypriots to run their own administration and ensuring stability in the process. The overzealous reaction to EOKA's activities was also misguided, there was no need to execute EOKA agitators, this just made them into martyrs. The decolonisation of Cyprus was also a botch job, saddling Cypriots with an unworkable and inflexible Constitution that was imposed on them from the outside (with the collusion of Greece and Turkey).

Secondly, EOKA was wrong. EOKA was a terrorist organisation that depended on promoting fear in certain segments of the population in order to either gain their cooperation or their apathy (much like the IRA and various other modern-day European terrorist groups). EOKA's policy of violence was misguided and provoked the British into a massive military response. Their aspirational goal of enosis ignored the feelings of a significant minority of their fellow Cypriots. Grivas was a nationalist zealot whose aim was not solely the annexation of Cyprus to Greece but was one of self-aggrandisement. EOKA did not represent all Cypriots, neither GC nor TC. It threatened violence against anyone who opposed it. EOKA did not advance the cause of Cypriots, but generated the conditions for the later schism between the two communities on the island. It forced a hurried exit strategy for the British, rather than a gradual transition to Cypriot rule which might have established a more successful and workable post-independence system.

No doubt some of you will choose to concentrate on these criticisms of EOKA, rather than the equally damning criticism of the British. However, much of what has gone wrong in Cyprus pivots around the activities of EOKA in the 1950s. Until people recognise that fact, and recognise that EOKA is not some sort of deity that deserves national worship, many GCs will continue to have their minds in the dark ages.
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