Cyprus-Forum.com

[Main_Source]

Come on, i've heard countless time on this forum, GC admiting to some attrocities towards TC between 1963 and 1974.

The fact of the matter is, the EOKA set up before independance was of a much noble cause than the EOKA B set up after independance. Even though the Turkish and British government may have told you different and its easier to take in that the whole EOKA movement was bad.

Anyway, that was the first time, in all his posts, i have seen Insan admit to any kind of wrong doings commited by the TC side.

But calling people like Agios Amvrosios and Mikkie 'Ultra Partisans' is a joke.

[boulio]

insan said:

You can't find just a single post by ultra-partisans such as Pantelis, mikkie, boulio, Agios, Kifeas, MicAtCyp, Thrillo etc. critisizing or questioning the criminal acts of EOKA, GC National Front, illegal status of National guard, Tassos, murder of leftists, Yorgacis, Mishaulides, Akritas Plan, Greek Orthodox Church, Amnesty for EOKA-B etc. When it comes to critisizing and questioning TMT, Turkish army, Clerides, Anastasiades, Denktash, Eroglu etc. They rush to paint a propaganda picture for self-satisfaction.

i just like to thank insan for the mention,are you sour because you got your ass handed to you by kifeas in a debate?or are you upset that metecyp didn't agree with your insanian logic?

[metecyp]

Let me get some things straight.

First, EOKA killed TCs before 1960. There are some TCs who were killed or became refugees due to "EOKA independence movement" in 1958. Question1: Was this noble?

Second, as far as I know, there was no EOKA-B until 1968-69. So TC killings between 1963-68, which you seem to acknowledge, were carried out by EOKA and also RoC authorities (I posted a story about this before).
Question2: Do you think this was noble?

Anyway, that was the first time, in all his posts, i have seen Insan admit to any kind of wrong doings commited by the TC side.

No, I have seen him and other TCs admit to wrong doings by the TC side many times. I'm yet to see a GC describing EOKA as a terrorist organization given the fact that EOKA killed many innocent TC civilians.

[Main_Source]

In the 50's, there were also TC who were killing GC whilst they were working for the British. If EOKA killed a TC policeman of the British...most TC saw it as just killing a TC.

But this argument really isnt getting us anywhere.

[Main_Source]

Besides, why would EOKA B make Makarios there no.1 enemy, if he had his RoC authorities carry out the same crimes (as EOKA B) between 1963 and 1974.

Why are you trying to paint every significant GC in those times as bad? Its straight out of the Denktash way of thinking.

[metecyp]

In the 50's, there were also TC who were killing GC whilst they were working for the British. If EOKA killed a TC policeman of the British...most TC saw it as just killing a TC.

But this argument really isnt getting us anywhere.

I'm not just talking about TC policeman of British. I'm talking about ordinary TCs leaving their houses and villages due to EOKA in 1950s. Given we had such causes, do you still believe that EOKA was noble?

Besides, why would EOKA B make Makarios there no.1 enemy, if he had his RoC authorities carry out the same crimes (as EOKA B) between 1963 and 1974.

Some crimes by GC RoC policemen were carried out against TCs between 1963-67 and I posted one story of such kind here. After 1968, Makarios realized that Enosis was not achievable so he focused on GC dominated independent Cyprus. That's what EOKA-B didn't like.

Why are you trying to paint every significant GC in those times as bad? Its straight out of the Denktash way of thinking.

So Makarios was good for TCs? He provided peace and prosperity to TCs? What did he do that was so good for TCs?

[Bananiot]

I think the forum will be much poorer without insan. Insan is the voice of TC moderation and if we cannot "live" with insan then how in heaven will the two communities ever live together again, albeit under a federal system? I cannot stop thinking that we are biased because we are involved, ie, Agios would probably be a good turkish nationalist had he been TC. Can we hover above our ethnic origin and look at things more objectively? Very hard to do, it appears. People that managed to do this, from both communities, were murdered, pretty much like Hikmet and Gurkan. I think one of them was murdered in front of his wife. In the eyes of the TC nationalists they were traitors that betrayed the “cause”.

[MicAtCyp]

No, I have seen him and other TCs admit to wrong doings
by the TC side many times. I'm yet to see a GC
describing EOKA as a terrorist organization given the
fact that EOKA killed many innocent TC civilians.

Metecyp, I wonder if it is enough for you to simply acknowledge the wrong doings of EOKA.If it is, then yes I do.

I have not seen any TC describing TMT as a terorist organisation though, what I ve seen is describing it as "defense" organisation. I personally described my confrontation with 2 TMT officers in Kyrenia, and I can assure you I am alive today because of 1-2 minutes of spare time the TC people at the kahvene spared us to escape. What threat my merchant father, selling beans and soya oil in barrels, was to those people, to rush to the truck inside which they had their guns hidden, to shoot us? Is that a defense or a hate?

If you want my full perspective of EOKA, and the organisations that were created after the 1960 like National Front and EOKA B I have no problem telling you. Notice however that I was not even born when Eoka was active.....

I can only assume what Eoka was, from judging the living Eoka members (of the period upto 1960) that I met through my llife. Notice that I ve met nobody in my life admitting he was a member of National Front or Eoka B!!!
So my judgement of those people is as follows:

a)A part of them are noble and respectable people.
b)The greatest part of them are psycho-sick. They have a distorted version of their "rightness" and some sick version of the ideals of Hellenism. Notice that the participation of this group in Eoka struggle was just to make demonstrations, or throw leaflets, or do the messengers.**
c)A part of the active Eoka gunmen were given jobs at the Police or in the Army. Most of them are alcoholics and fascists, who always think like "Shut up or I will take the gun and make you start dancing". I personally met a lot of those in the Army....Their mentality is to enforce their view by using a gun.Deprive them their guns and they are all idiot worms.

May I also point out that many Eoka members who had guns, were using them for self interest, without been ordered by the leadership to do those acts. I know of numerous examples they used their guns to force the TCs out just to steal their belongings, or their packs of animals...

** Now I will tell you an incident concerning that group of people. One evening a couple of relatives from my wifes side came to visit us. At some point the matter of the past TC sufferings came up, and I dared mention something that was described in the "cyprus-conflict" study of Papadakis. They strarted looking at me angrily, telling me "who told you these, they are lies of the Turks, we cant beleive what we are hearing from you" etc etc. I said they are not lies and they were verified by independent sources. They said "what independent sources prove it to us". I said OK I will go upstairs and bring the documents to prove it to you. So I went upstairs, it took me 5 minutes to spot the right page from Papadakis study (because I was reading it the previous night) so I rushed downstairs to prove it to them. Imagine my surprise seeing that our guests already left and my wife looking at me angrily telling me "Look what you have done-they said goodnight and left"!!!!

PS. To make a successful armed liberation struggle you need all 3 groups of people a,b,c that I described above. The problem is always : After the liberation struggle is over, who is going to liberate you from your "liberators"????

[MicAtCyp]

This forum is confronting. The debates are always concentrated in proving the other side wrong. When we reach a point that one of the two sides is right, instead of acknowledging that and giving our oponent the satisfaction, we keep silent and avoid to reply. Or we revert to curses. Or we repeat our weak arguments in a different version. Or one of our side jumps in to destroy everything.

We ALL very well understand the points of our oponents. In most cases we are partly right and our oponent is partly right. We never acknowledge or we PRETEND we did not understand the partly right of our oponent
In this climate what satisfaction can anyone get out of his participation? Only tense nerves. Only the opinion that "they" do not agree on anything. Only that "they" are looking for excuses.

Now imagine a person like Insan, paricpating in almost every discussion, and getting confronted with 10 (? ) active GC participants as compared with 5 (? ) TC active participants. How long could he hold? In fact when I saw the looong discussions he had with Kifeas, I even predicted they would end the way they ended.

Insan yurttas you became touchy and irritating because you got too tired. I became like you in the past and said I wanted to go out of the forum. Then some very good friends that I respect, both GCs and TCs, were telling me please come back we need your valued contribution etc etc. So I yielded and came back. Actually I was not ready yet to return. So when I did come back , I returned worse than what I left and started attacking everybody. . . What I wanted to avoid with my withdrawal happened as soon as I came back unready. It is a human reaction. The forum and our subject is nerve braking! We need a good relaxing from time to time. . . .

Insan gardas I am very glad you are withdrawing. Please take your time, and come back only when you are sure you are calm enough to stand the nerve braking nature of this forum.
We will be waiting for you. Whatever you said against us (me included) we already forgot it. For me personally it did not mean anything. One thing is certain: The forum will be MUCH poorer without you. We will be waiting for you.

We still love you!

[insan]

I'm not tired Mic gardas. Just I felt that turning around the same cycles times and times again and going nowhere is boring and a waste of time. But again I couldn't stop myself to reply some of the posts. That's all. I'm not angry to anyone.