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[Alexandros Lordos]

So much time has been wasted already, let us not waste any more ...

Exactly. So why don't GCs tells us what kind of a federation they're ready to discuss? This is what holding us back right now, correct? It's not Denktash, it's not the Turkish side, it's the GC side that's blocking the progress at the moment.

Well, both sides are currently saying that they are willing to re-enter negotiation, the GC side just doesn't want to reveal its position before the negotiations begin. I also agree that it doesn't make sense to reveal your official negotating position outside the context of ongoing negotiations - because it will just be ridiculed and taken advantage of for political profit.

If the GC side refuses to accept the recommencement of negotiations after the UN invites us back to the table, and if within the framework of negotiations we refuse to reveal what kind of Federation we want, then you will have every right to accuse us and condemn our attitude.

By the way, I think Talat is making the same mistake which Denktash did - he is retaliating against GC intransigence or perceived intransigence, by becoming more intransigent himself. I just hope he is putting on a show for the time being to get the settler votes - just like Clerides was putting on a "hardliner show" to grab the presidency from Vassiliou - and that then he will settle down into the serious business of negotiations.

If Tassos is truly intransigent, as some suspect, then the best way for the TC side to expose that is by being the voice of moderation. I hope that this is what Talat will become after April 17th.

My best case scenario is that Tassos is more moderate than suspected, and that he will honestly negotiate a solution in his presidency.

My worst case scenario is that Tassos is actually a hardliner, in which case he will lose the next election (because the GC people want a solution)and we will have a new and more moderate GC leader in 3 years time.

Either way, I believe that a solution is not far.

[Main_Source]

If Papadopolous gives his views on changes to the A Plain outside official negotiations, then Turkey may not like them and stall on the start of talks. In that event, we wont even GET INTO any negotiations. All that has to be done is another round of official negotiations be made and that way, all the stalling of talks and other crap would be cut out.

I can see the outcome if Papa gave his views now...Turkey would deem them totally unacceptable and stall any further talks for a settlement.

If these views on change to the A Plan were done in official talks, both parties would under pressure to thrash out an agreement.

[metecyp]

I also agree that it doesn't make sense to reveal your official negotating position outside the context of ongoing negotiations - because it will just be ridiculed and taken advantage of for political profit.

I understand this but I'm not even talking about the specifics of the Annan plan. One day you hear T-Pap talking about changes to the Annan plan as if it's still on the table. One day he talks about a European solution. One day you hear someone else from the GC side that says how the Annan plan is null and void. This confusion is what I mean. We're open about what we want. We want changes to the Annan plan that will make it acceptable to both sides, especially GCs since they refused it. GCs, on the other hand, do they want the Annan plan? Do they want something else? We don't know....

[boulio]

metecyp the confusion might all be tactics to not reveal what t-pap wants till negotiotions start.

[Main_Source]

Mete, do u know if it was a memeber of Papa's party who said the Annan plan is null and void? Was it a direct quote in a newspaper? Did they say, as the Annan Plan STANDS, it is null and void.

At the end of the day, Papadopolous has made concessions tot he TC like cancelling building projects on TC land, giving some of them there houses back, giving them FREE health care (which is paid through GC taxes) and trying to bring the communities together in the offer of a joint GC/TC port in Famagusta, if it was returned.

All I keep on hearing from TC is that he is still a bad man...maybe you are reading too much from the media in Turkey, which is run by the military.

[Alexandros Lordos]

metecyp the confusion might all be tactics to not reveal what t-pap wants till negotiotions start.

Hmm, I wouldn't interpret it this way - it is just that the whole issue of "how we proceed" is very controversial amongst GCs, and even within the government there is much divergence of opinion. Mete and others are right to feel confused, the GC community is also very confused.

The Annan Plan has challenged traditional perceptions. Even though it was rejected, we should not underestimate the extent to which it has gotten our way of thinking "in motion". As a result, the GC community is currently in flux, trying to decide what it wants - on a grass roots as well as on a political level.

[MicAtCyp]

Alex,
my previous post said that half the GCs need to return and get ALL their properties whereas the remaining will need to exchange equal to equal properties under a scheme OF FREE WILL exchanges. This cannot be achieved if we set a specific area where those half GC refugees will return, and the other half will exchange properties! It has to be from all the area, so in this respect there will occure no bizonality!

Now reviewing the matter of property exchanges I came to the conclusion that this is a myth too. The value of GC properties at the occupied areas are 20 times more than what the TCs left behind!
Please read my following posts

[MicAtCyp]

First of all total population of TC community was 118.000 in 1973. According to Tassos, only %3.6 of occupied belong to TCs in North. This means 2/3 of TC properties are in South

I hope these data can help the discussion between you and Kifeas Insan. I don't know where you heard that statement of Tasos but the figures are wrong and thus your conclusion is also wrong. Looking forward to hear what you two will say.

Here are some data regarding the properties percentage wise, amount wise and value wise as per 1974 figures.Some of the data are from links that I already gave in the past, some are from my records. Notice there is a difference between the 2 data regarding the land of "others" due to what "others" is defined, but generally the percentages for GC and TC properties are very close.

The general conclusion is that the TCs left behind properties worth 0.10 billion whereas they got GC properties worth 1.97 billion i.e 20 times more! (I would multiply by about 15-20 to get todays values). One can notice the values of TC lands per acre in 1974 were about 1/3 of the GC ones. That can propably be attributed to non development given their isolation. But even if we equalise the values per acre then the TCs got 7 times more land, value-wise than what they left behind....

*****************************************************************************

1974 shares of properties (area-wise)

Free areas:
GC:59,8 %
TC: 9,7%
State: 27,2%
Other: %3,3
Total: 100%

Occupied Areas

GC:58,2 %
TC:16,2 %
State: 22,8%
Other: 2,8%
Total:100 %

1974 shares of properties (value -wise)

Free areas

GC:82.4 %
TC:4,2 %
State: 6,1%
Other: 7,3%
Total:100 %

Occupied areas

GC:79.1 %
TC:8,5 %
State: 8,4%
Other: 4,0%
Total:100 %



Average price of land in 1974 in CYPounds per scala
Free areas

GC:663
TC:206
State: 104
Other: 1547
Total:481 (average)

Average price of land in 1974 in CYPounds per scala
Occupied areas

GC:1346
TC:519
State: 363
Other: 1432
Total:990 (average)




NUMBER OF SCALAS OF LAND (1 Scala=0.33 acres=0.1338 Hectares)

CYPRUS OCCUPIED FREE AREAS CYPRUS OCCUPIED FREE AREAS
GC 4,182,967 1,460,643 2,722,324 60.49% 60.73% 60.36%
TC 852,455 379,146 473,309 12.33% 15.76% 10.49%
State 1,847,820 559,602 1,288,218 26.72% 23.27% 28.56%
Other 32,150 5,935 26,215 0.46% 0.25% 0.58%
Total 6,915,392 2,405,326 4,510,066 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%

Values of lands in 1974 per scala Billions worth as per 1974 prices

OCCUPIED FREE AREAS CYPRUS UCCUPIED FREE AR TOTAL
GC £ 1,346 £ 663 3.77 1.97 1.80
TC £ 519 £ 206 0.29 0.20 0.10
State £ 363 £ 104 0.34 0.20 0.13
Other £ 1,432 £ 1,547 0.05 0.01 0.04
Total £ 990 £ 481 4.55 2.38 2.17

Percentage value wise:

TOTAL CY OCCUPIED FREE AREAS
GC 82.87% 82.56% 83.20%
TC 6.47% 8.26% 4.49%
State 7.41% 8.53% 6.18%
Other 1.08% 0.36% 1.87%
Total 100.00% 100.00% 100.00%[/list]

[MicAtCyp]

Anybody who is interested to see the TABLES in a Decent FORMAT please refer to this link:
http://groups.msn.com/CyprusTalks/trke.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1622&LastModified=4675517415113060971&all_topics=1

[MicAtCyp]

So Turkey will find that it is standing in the dock next to Greek Cyprus -a fascinatingn prospect given that this means that the cases between 1963 and 1974
will be aired at the same time, as those which refer to the 1974 Turkish intervention

Sorry but you are wrong! Titina Loizidou did not get compensation from 1974 to date! She got compensation from 1990 (since which date Turkey accepted the juristiction of ECHR) to date of judjement!

Furthermore it seems to me you dream of too many own goals lately. I wish the TCs every good luck for the period from 1963-74 but guess what, neither Cyprus nor Turkey nor Greece (?) have accepted it's juristiction back then, I think it did not even exist.. Furthermore (if I am not mistaken) the compensation starts counting from the date you file your complain at the court.